Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

On trans threads I've been misunderstood and accused of gaslighting when I've tried to explain.

I've been called passive aggressive for trying to be careful I put things kindly

I've been accused of being abusive

I've been told I'm stupid

I've been told I'm not a feminist

I've had my abusive childhood brought into discussion

Ive had a period of very devastating illness that is not related brought into discussion

I've had my profession brought into discussion

I've been placed in the same basket of trans activists and been told I condone violence against women

I've been told what I must think or feel as a trans ally

That's what has rightfully been deleted as personal attacks which are against guidelines, not "silencing women".

I know some may not have seen this or may not recognise it when personally invested in these discussions but it is there and it is difficult to feel welcome and wanted in discussions when you accept trans women as the gender they feel

VioletSky But without open discussion of the issues involved, those organisations and businesses you speak of who are getting it wrong won't have the relevant "pinch points" made clear to them, so that they can work on getting it right. That should not (and mostly does not) mean that it is OK to use abuse against those with different opinions. I would guess that 99% of posters on here are perfectly polite in stating their opinions and explaining why they hold them.

If all the viewpoints are not aired, and all the arguments are not examined (in a civilised way) then they won't cease to exist - they will still be festering if what is fair for only one part of society becomes a fait accompli against the interests of other parts. That would not be a good outcome for anyone.

Elegran I do agree the discussions need to happen, just individually. Every thread v becomes about every negative thought people have about trans people. 0 issues are resolved

Perhaps VS you should accept that your views are not shared by the majority on GN. You seem to have an obsession with trans women and have even started another thread on the subject today. I’m sure we all know your views. Please stop banging your head against a brick wall trying to get everyone to agree with you. It’s not going to happen.

White wave, apologies if I misunderstood one if your posts. I understood you to suggest that if children were raised gender neutral, the differences in play, interests etc would be broadly similar till hormones kick in.
David Reiner was a Canadian man born male. He was raised as a girl following medical advice after his penis was severely injured during bitched circumcision in infancy. Dr John Money, a psychologist specialising in ‘sex changes’ advised surgical and later hormone interventionto change the infants physical sex presentation.
At 17 months old the boy known as Bruce became Brenda. His twin brother became the control group. Neither child was given the truth, both raised believing Brenda to be female. At 9, Dr Money described Brenda as an active happy little girl, a tomboy.
By 13, Brenda was suicidal. The parents ended contact with Dr Mooney. Against his advice, they told their children the truth. Within weeks Brenda has become David. He had re-constructive surgery and married. Both ge and his brother developed mental health problems, both died in their 30’s

This tragedy started in 1965 so a long time ago. The Cass report from the Tavistock GIDS clinic confirms my view (shared by other gender critical feminists) that the model of early medical intervention, taking as the starting point the child’s belief they were burn into the wrong body, is not based on a firm body of research. The starting point should ge as it is in any other Medici/social treatment service. An in depth, analytical, research based assessment of the child’s holistic needs

*Violet Sky*: have you been called boring?

eazybee

*Violet Sky*: have you been called boring?

Yes, I've only ever started one trans related thread that was just meant to be one positive in a sea of negative and answer a question that keeps being asked where it wouldn't be missed.

Iam64

White wave, apologies if I misunderstood one if your posts. I understood you to suggest that if children were raised gender neutral, the differences in play, interests etc would be broadly similar till hormones kick in.
David Reiner was a Canadian man born male. He was raised as a girl following medical advice after his penis was severely injured during bitched circumcision in infancy. Dr John Money, a psychologist specialising in ‘sex changes’ advised surgical and later hormone interventionto change the infants physical sex presentation.
At 17 months old the boy known as Bruce became Brenda. His twin brother became the control group. Neither child was given the truth, both raised believing Brenda to be female. At 9, Dr Money described Brenda as an active happy little girl, a tomboy.
By 13, Brenda was suicidal. The parents ended contact with Dr Mooney. Against his advice, they told their children the truth. Within weeks Brenda has become David. He had re-constructive surgery and married. Both ge and his brother developed mental health problems, both died in their 30’s

This tragedy started in 1965 so a long time ago. The Cass report from the Tavistock GIDS clinic confirms my view (shared by other gender critical feminists) that the model of early medical intervention, taking as the starting point the child’s belief they were burn into the wrong body, is not based on a firm body of research. The starting point should ge as it is in any other Medici/social treatment service. An in depth, analytical, research based assessment of the child’s holistic needs

Yes I absolutely take that point, because it undoubtedly relates to the subject that I am loathe to tackle which is hormones. Which suggests nature and nurture are not simple, and beyond my pay scale but I’m ready to give it a go?

Following on from Iam64's post 're Bruce Reimer, you can read more about it here if you're interested: embryo.asu.edu/pages/david-reimer-and-john-money-gender-reassignment-controversy-johnjoan-case

It's a heart breaking read of experimentation on a child. He committed suicide at just 37.

So I’ve come to the stage of trying to understand the role that hormones play in sexual/innate behaviour.

A couple of posters have suggested that hormones do indeed have a role in an individuals behaviour.

Now correct me if I’m wrong here as I feeling my way. Without the assistance of google etc.

Between the ages of say 8-13 (figures entirely guesswork) or the pre -pubescent child, boys and girls who had happily played alongside and with each other suddenly show a strong preference for their own sex.

Before reversing this at puberty to a strong interest in the opposite sex.

This to a large extent informs their behaviour. Which we assume is innate. They are not taught this behaviour. It happens in all societies and species.

What controls this strong sexual and innate attraction is society and cultural traditions. They vary from society to society, but without exception they all recognise the need to control an individuals sexual behaviour.

Your description applies to hetrosexual people but obviously there are gay people, are you saying sexuality is innate?

No I am saying that sexual behaviour is innate.

OK now this I think is where we try to understand the massive argument.

So far I think that.

Gender and gender behaviour is a learned construct.

Sex is immutable and sexual behaviour governed by hormones, is innate. - I’m not talking about S&M ? here or other sorts of behaviour, I’m talking about the act of copulation.

Societies control sexual behaviour.

I also think that people have the right to be free from prejudice and harm as a result of their chosen life style.

Can of worms now wide open.

I tend to shy away from these 'philosophical' discussions' as I am more interested in practical solutions. It also annoys me that this issue is attracting such attention when the reality is that women are 1000s of times more likely to be raped/ abused/assaulted/killed by persons who identify as Male both biologically and by gender.

Practical solutions? 1) Make all public toilets unisex and composed of cubicles with wash hand basins. This would have the added benefit of helping people with incontinence problems etc. to 'wash up' in privacy. etc. and on a personal note would have been helpful for me when DH (with dementia) needed to be accompanied to the toilet. Also on a mundane level who allow me to wash out my false teeth in private when a crumb had got stuck under them.

2) The persons most likely by far to be sexually assaulted in prison are good looking young males in men's prisons. This is a problem for the prison service which should do more to ensure that there is no opportunity for these acts to occur in Male or Female prisons.

3) Speaking as a former Women's Aid worker (18.5 years experience) NO one can demand to be admitted to a refuge. Admission will be dependent on firstly if refuge is the most appropriate solution at that time. then if there is any space available, then other considerations e.g. if the family seeking refuge contains a son over 16 yo. Families are not turned away but may be referred instead to scattered flats Homeless Persons accommodation while still receiving support from WA or even helped with transportation to a distant safe location with family or friends.

Most WA workers will have experience of lesbian partnerships where both partners have sought refuge after violence. In this situation they would both assisted but given space at different refuges/safe houses and the confidentiality of both maintained.

I see so many echos of the struggles for gay rights back in the 60s 70s when every gay or Lesbian person was viewed as being a potential paedophile, who should be barred from working with children and young people. Meanwhile the vast majority of paedophiles presented as macho males. I was friendly with two unrelated couples, locally who presented as sisters. and had the same surnames. In one pair there was one who looked 'manly' wore tweed suits and brogues and went out to work while one stayed at home in pretty frocks. They not only had very different accents but used different vocabulary. The other couple were retired teachers, who neither looked nor sounded alike but always dressed the same. I presumed that they were Lesbians especially when they once told me they had moved to Scotland "because the laws were more liberal'.

Now I wonder if in fact the larger 'sisters' were in fact trans-women. Not that it matters as they were delightful company, good neighbours and no threat to anyone.

I have never wished to be anything other than what I am - that doesn't mean I don't have great sympathy for those who believe they are in the "wrong" body. However, whilst supporting the rights of those who wish to transition I also support the rights of those who are born women.

Whilst a person still has male genitalia then I don't think they should be allowed access to women only spaces. I agree the majority of trans women are not predators, but there are those who claim to identify as women who are a danger.

Imagine you are a woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past or have escaped an abusive relationship, you go into a public toilet or changing room and come face to face with someone with obvious male characteristics - how safe would you feel?

Some years ago I was on a plane sat next to a young girl. She told me a man had been harassing her in the departure lounge so she had stayed in the ladies until her flight was called. Whilst recognising the rights of trans women we must not forget the rights of those who were born women to feel safe.

I agree that people should be free from prejudice but I dont agree that sex segregation is prejudice.

I dont understand your point about prisons Granny, young men in prisons are being sexually assaulted by other men, I dont think this means we should think that having men in female prisons is a good plan.

So here we go.

I think that whilst we are immutably male or female, what consolidates that as we get older are our hormones.

First I need to distinguish between what I understand as Transexuals - those folk who wish to become the opposite sex by active intervention through surgery and hormone treatment.
I am making the massive assumption here so correct me if I’m wrong, that the hormones will affect them physically as well as their innate sexual behaviour. So a man receiving this intervention will look like a woman with breasts, smoother skin, a more rounded body etc. I must if my argument holds assume that the oestrogen will affect his/her innate sexuality. This individual can no longer copulate as a male or become a father. Neither can that individual give birth as a female, although there is nothing stopping them acting in a nurturing role.

Then the male who rejects his male role and takes the female role. I’ve no idea what this is called?
His sex and hormones remain untouched. He can copulate as a male and his innate behaviour is guided by his testosterone.

Now I have already touched on the fact that societies throughout the world and with good reason control sexual behaviour.

Every religion has rules surrounding sexuality. Every secular society has laws that control sexual behaviour.

These act to protect the individual and prevent sexual violence.

No one is saying that people who believe that they were born in the 'wrong bodies' do not have issues and rights but.....
.
Why should this cause women and young girls lose their RIGHT to spaces such as changing rooms, toilets womens refuge and womens prisons to suit others?

Why should womens sport have Tw taking part, when they obviously have a huge advantage
Sort some of the above out first then I will listen to a debate.

Biology cannot be changed
Gender is a choice.

My M to F trans relative believed that being a woman was ‘feeling’ like a woman, wearing high heels, short skirts, lots of make-up and speaking in what I can only describe as a simpering voice.

We have an extremely close relationship and over a long period of time (years during which s/he was being treated at a gender clinic) we had lots of discussions and, knowing that I was a ‘safe’ person, s/he shared her thoughts about womanhood and I shared mine. My understanding (from her/him) is that the clinic was primarily about reinforcing and affirming trans identities and so his/her genuine questions and confusion were not only not addressed there, they were actively discouraged. What s/he actually needed was not a gender clinic it was someone to identify and offer appropriate treatment and support for underlying mental health issues.

I'm glad to say that a couple of years ago my relative chose to detrans and is completely muddled up about that time in his life, but he accepts that he was encouraged down that particular path at a time when he was extremely vulnerable. I’m ‘glad’ to say it, not because my relative has detransed, but because he is now a much calmer and happier person through accepting himself as he is.

So, to respond to the OP, during the time he was living as a trans woman my relative continued to have my wholehearted, unconditional love and support. I do not hate trans people, I am not transphobic. But, I do not confuse gender identity with sex and I will not be coerced into a lie about what it is to be a woman or a man. I try to be kind - and I think it is actually unkind and would challenge my integrity to collude with a biological man or woman in asserting they are of the opposite sex. It smacks too much of The Emperor’s New Clothes to me.

I am still not clear what you mean by innate sexual behaviour and what it has to do with gender dysphoria. Do you mean the innate need for sex or do you think that there is something innate about sexual behaviour itself i.e hetrosexual homosexual bisexual .

Oldwoman70
Imagine you are a woman who has been sexually assaulted in the past or have escaped an abusive relationship, you go into a public toilet or changing room and come face to face with someone with obvious male characteristics - how safe would you feel?

Firstly I would have been hunting desperately for a single sex toilet or changing room, which, in an equal rights society would have been available.

In a mixed sex toilet or changing room which I’m told is the way things are going, I would not be happy, but I would know in advance that a male in there was possible. Then how safe I’d feel would depend on whether I’d managed to reframe my trauma like I’ve heard men advise abused women to do.

If it was a female toilet or changing room, then I wouldn’t feel safe at all, because no well-intentioned male would be abusing the access rules, mentally abusing me just by being there and, worst case scenario, about to physically abuse me.

So a male who chooses to retain his testosterone and ability to copulate as a man, should still in my opinion be subject to the same societal rules that govern sexual behaviour as every other male

There is absolutely nothing stopping him as a man dressing or acting out a woman’s role as he wishes. He has a right to do so without hinderance or harm.

But as a male he has no right to impinge on accepted safe female spaces. By invading these spaces he is, in my opinion breaking a fundamental right that women have - a right to be free from fear of hinderance and sexual harm.

Galaxy

I am still not clear what you mean by innate sexual behaviour and what it has to do with gender dysphoria. Do you mean the innate need for sex or do you think that there is something innate about sexual behaviour itself i.e hetrosexual homosexual bisexual .

Yes innate need for sex.

Whitewavemark2
Thank you.