Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

So that’s what I think until I’m told otherwise???

Ok I see what you mean. I suppose my answer to that would be I dont think a woman is simply a man without a penis or that a woman is a man without testosterone. I think for very few spaces (toilets can be easily solved in my view - individual enlosed cubicles similar to disabled toilets) that it is sex that is the important factor whatever you may or may not do to your body. So prisons refuges sport crime stats. I also dont want to get into the situation of saying in order to access female spaces you need very serious medical procedures for which there appears to be very little data or follow up on the impacts of these interventions. Oh and if that would also mean that transmen (female to male) who have taken testosterone would be placed in male prisons then I would have very serious safety concerns for them. They are as far as I am aware not placed in male prisons at the moment thank god.

Sorry lots of different issues in that last post. WW you need to come on these threads more often, this is the calmest conversation there has ever been

No as far as I’m concerned the issue surrounds males who adopt the role of females but retain their sex.

Everything else I think should be a non-issue and can be dealt with satisfactorily.

It is all about giving people the right to safety etc.

grannyactivist
Thank you for sharing that story. People have no idea what damage is being done ?

Galaxy

I dont understand your point about prisons Granny, young men in prisons are being sexually assaulted by other men, I dont think this means we should think that having men in female prisons is a good plan.

Galaxy My point is that the vast majority of sexual attacks in prisons are male on male. This is a big problem which requires a 'practical solution = better supervision and more prison officers. This BIG problem is being forgotten about because the focus of attention is on of the much smaller (numbers-wise) problem of self declared trans women assaulting females in Women's prisons which could also be prevented with better supervision/more officers, etc.

It could also be prevented by housing male-bodied prisoners in men’s jails.

There is nothing stopping people discussing the issue of male on male violence in prisons, there is quite an issue with male suicide for example this doesnt mean that I cant discuss male violence towards women.
Transwomen assaulting women in prison would be simply solved by segregating the prison population by sex.

grannyactivist thank you for being a voice of reason on here.
Mental health issues + access to gender change can be a minefield. Activists are ready to carry the banner.

There are no alternative views to those of an activist. Activists permanently demand more because if their original demands are met they become redundant.

This (what is it? 1%?) of the population are a noisy lot. They’ve been given a platform now. There’s no putting this particular genie back in the bottle I fear.

Whitewave your post @ 15.46 is exactly what I, and many others, have' been trying to get across for many months over many threads. ?

Can anyone tell me what they mean by trans rights.

What I mean is - does that term cover just people who are transitioning from one sex to another through medical intervention

Or men or women who adopt a gender role without giving up their sex.

Or both?

Because if it is both it seems very unsatisfactory.

Chewbacca

Whitewave your post @ 15.46 is exactly what I, and many others, have' been trying to get across for many months over many threads. ?

I shan’t hold out much hope then ? - Be pleased ( do I hear a groan) to read criticisms of my conclusion.

Activists permanently demand more because if their original demands are met they become redundant.

I believe that this is what happened to Stonewall. They were a real force for good in the 70s when they fought for LGB rights. They did so well, in fact, that they became redundant and looked for other allied causes to espouse, and now they are more about trans rights than anything.

Whitewavemark2

So a male who chooses to retain his testosterone and ability to copulate as a man, should still in my opinion be subject to the same societal rules that govern sexual behaviour as every other male

There is absolutely nothing stopping him as a man dressing or acting out a woman’s role as he wishes. He has a right to do so without hinderance or harm.

But as a male he has no right to impinge on accepted safe female spaces. By invading these spaces he is, in my opinion breaking a fundamental right that women have - a right to be free from fear of hinderance and sexual harm.

Agreed.

Well I go out for the day and it all kicks off.
I have on other trans-threads been told I'm mysogynistic, don't care about women and aprove of violence. None of which are true, But if you have trans supportive views it seems to be the only way those views can be countered.
Firstly I accept totally that there are places and occasions when transwomen may not be welcome and the law actually covers this saying even if they have a GRC they can be excluded if women would not use the service if they were present.
I think gender neutral toilets should be the norm, how on earth can we expect men to take equal responsibility for childcare if the only place they can take their daughter is a male toilet? Places should be family friendly and that would solve the trans issue.
Where I have real doubts is in the area of women needing safe spaces. Because it seems to me a small step from women being provided with safe spaces to women being restricted to safe spaces. I think the concept that women are permanently in danger from male agression is a dangerous one. I want to see all spaces safe for women and that includes transwomen. And I don't think it is transpeople who are actually the real danger. I think women's rights are not on the whole threatened by transwomen they are threatend by certain right wing elements who would see our hard women freedoms rolled back and who are willing to use the trans issue to acheive this.

What do you mean by it all kicks off trisher?. IMO there have once again been some very sensible posts on this subject despite the false claims made in the thread's title, or was it the creation of this thread you were referring too?

Potato potato SL2012.

The perspective of the title (which I stand by) depends which side of the debate you're on.

trisher

Well I go out for the day and it all kicks off.
I have on other trans-threads been told I'm mysogynistic, don't care about women and aprove of violence. None of which are true, But if you have trans supportive views it seems to be the only way those views can be countered.
Firstly I accept totally that there are places and occasions when transwomen may not be welcome and the law actually covers this saying even if they have a GRC they can be excluded if women would not use the service if they were present.
I think gender neutral toilets should be the norm, how on earth can we expect men to take equal responsibility for childcare if the only place they can take their daughter is a male toilet? Places should be family friendly and that would solve the trans issue.
Where I have real doubts is in the area of women needing safe spaces. Because it seems to me a small step from women being provided with safe spaces to women being restricted to safe spaces. I think the concept that women are permanently in danger from male agression is a dangerous one. I want to see all spaces safe for women and that includes transwomen. And I don't think it is transpeople who are actually the real danger. I think women's rights are not on the whole threatened by transwomen they are threatend by certain right wing elements who would see our hard women freedoms rolled back and who are willing to use the trans issue to acheive this.

If you are addressing me regarding “safe spaces” what I argued is that sexual behaviour has and is always controlled by society and there are rules governing that behaviour in every known society throughout our existence.

My argument is that those who choose to continue as one sex but take on the gender role of another should not be able to opt out of those rules.

I’ve been reading all the threads today and not once have I seen any sign of anyone being intimidated for having opposing views ?‍♀️ Hope that isn’t a disappointment to anyone.

Hope that isn’t a disappointment to anyone.

I suspect it might be Libman. It suits the narrative of "oppression of the trans movement".

Firstly I accept totally that there are places and occasions when transwomen may not be welcome and the law actually covers this saying even if they have a GRC they can be excluded if women would not use the service if they were present.
And you know as well as I do that far too many organisations are so terrified of being labelled transphobic that it's not implemented. Would it be too much to ask transwomen to be respectful of these places without having to be censored by the law? Of course some transwomen do this naturally, Fionne Orlander being one.

I think gender neutral toilets should be the norm, how on earth can we expect men to take equal responsibility for childcare if the only place they can take their daughter is a male toilet
Yet on another thread you were advocating for women to use the male toilets, so why the problem with taking a daughter into a cubicle there?

Libman

I’ve been reading all the threads today and not once have I seen any sign of anyone being intimidated for having opposing views ?‍♀️ Hope that isn’t a disappointment to anyone.

I agree. It makes a really nice change.

*censured autocorrect strikes again!

I believe that misogyny does underpin the idea that womanhood is available to anyone, that safe spaces are not necessary and that the language should be changed to accommodate tiny numbers of people (eg pregnant transmen in maternity wards). It also explains the inability to understand why women would object to being asked to 'reframe the trauma' of rape, be worried at the idea of male sex-offenders sharing prison cells and furious at the idea of men competing with them in high level sport.

How could someone who cares about women believe that these things are ok? Sorry, but I stand by any posts I have made that have said so. The misogyny may well have been internalised, but it is there.

As for accusations - trisher it was only yesterday that you said that I had condoned violence because I pointed out that a poetry event had moved online, not been cancelled. I hadn't done so, and when I challenged the accusation, I was told that because I hadn't specifically posted that alleged threats of violence were wrong that I was as bad as those making the threats. I have also been called right wing, racist, homophobic and even Nazi at one point! My professionalism has been called into question, and the lived experience of my younger days doubted. Oh, and when I said that I was looking at Zoom screens with pronouns next to the participants' names, it was strongly implied that I was lying. All of these things were said or done by you, although you are not alone in resorting to such insults or slurs.

This whole thread is based on a false premise. I'm sure that it hasn't gone in quite the way it was intended, although I am pleased that (so far) it has remained civil. I am unable to let the victim-playing pass unchallenged, though - and I am certain that others who have followed 'trans threads' will have seen the things that I mention and will be nodding in agreement.

I'm pleased about the civility of it too, Doodledog. It's so nice to have a discussion and be friendly with it.