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What is a woman?

(210 Posts)
VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 12:27:16

What is a woman to me?

I feel in modern times women are being reduced to sex categories, ignoring our vast and varied biology. The very biology that for years has allowed women to be stereotyped, seen as weaker and even seen as so great in difference to other women, women were enslaved and sold.

Biology as diverse as a woman's has caused so many non white women pain and fear yet the biology of women is now somehow fixed?

Sojourner Truth "Ain't I a woman?"

Yet we are all women and that must be respected while acknowledging our differences, our separate struggles, our journeys to claiming our womanhood. The discriminations other women have faced that we don't and the discriminations other women have faced that we do because of biological diversity.

Some simply see women as one simple biological fact, men and women. Nothing else.

Some of us see it as a rainbow, A beautiful spectrum of difference and diversity. Men, women, trans, non binary people, all valid.

I wasn't born a woman, I was born a baby, I became a child, on an equal footing with boys, running and jumping and getting dirty in the mud. What was there to tell us apart but the hair and clothes chosen for us by adults?

I wasn't born a woman, society told me I was one when I reached physical maturity. Society told me what to wear, how to act.

Am I a woman? I choose my own hair, my own clothes, my personality and how to express myself in the ways that other women do that I enjoy as an individual.

Can anyone look at me and declare my womanhood undoubtedly? Probably but only because that is what I choose and how I express myself. Is that true of all people? No.

You see everything about who I am as a woman is on the inside. Its in my thoughts, my opinions, my appreciation of beautiful things, the way I would like to look, the clothes I would like to wear, in the things I appreciate about friends and family, the strength I have for my children, the love and the pure determination to be a good mother.

I am a woman on the inside, not the outside. That's how I identify. I can change the outside. I can gain or lose weight, I can wear more or less make up, I can cut my hair or grow it out. I can have my body surgically altered but who I am on the inside remains the same.

I am one woman amongst a world of biologically diverse women, not a single one of us looks exactly the same, we don't all choose to express our gender identity visually at all, yet still identify as women.

It is the same for trans women.

I am a woman and so is she.

GagaJo Sat 26-Mar-22 17:02:37

Those that want bottom surgery face years of waiting lists. And I'm sure COVID has turned that into something getting on for a decade.

The initial appointment to see a consultant is over a 5 year wait.

snowberryZ Sat 26-Mar-22 17:07:21

GagaJo

Diamond Lily, I disagree that it's the majority that feel threatened.

On Mumsnet / Gransnet it's the majority. In real life, the majority are disinterested. And the majority of young people are lgbTq friendly and supportive.

I don't buy it.
Some of my friends are lesbians
Most of them are definitely NOT on board with all of this.
Was having a conversation with my daughter who has male friends who are gay and she says one or two aren't happy wirh the way trans has more or less hijacked the lgb community.
There are also reports of young lesbians being called transphobic because they refuse to have a relationship with a transwoman who has decided that as well as being a woman, they are also lesbian and that actual lesbians should want to have sex wirh them, even though the transwoman has a penis!

GagaJo Sat 26-Mar-22 17:14:02

I also have lesbian friends. Some of whom work on an LGBTQ helpline. They support Trans people as readily as gay/queer.

Depends on your friendship circle I guess.

Riverwalk Sat 26-Mar-22 17:16:39

Gaga, the Credit Suisse director who spends part of the week dressed in the most cringeworthy girly flouncy clothes and blonde wig - is this person a woman?

If so, what is she on the days he's presenting as a bald man in a suit?

snowberryZ Sat 26-Mar-22 17:17:14

GagaJo

Those that want bottom surgery face years of waiting lists. And I'm sure COVID has turned that into something getting on for a decade.

The initial appointment to see a consultant is over a 5 year wait.

You're not listening.
These days transwomen are encouraged not to have surgery down below.
Current thinking is ' why tamper with a perfect working organ - the surgery isn't always successful and can mean a life of pain.
They are encouraged to keep it, strap it up and to thinkof it as a 'female penis'hmm

It suits the trans community to perpetuate the myth that most transwomen have bottom surgery
It garners more support for them if the majority of people think that they're making every conceivable effort to become women.

snowberryZ Sat 26-Mar-22 17:19:04

GagaJo

I also have lesbian friends. Some of whom work on an LGBTQ helpline. They support Trans people as readily as gay/queer.

Depends on your friendship circle I guess.

I have a very varied , diverse friendship circle thank you very much.

snowberryZ Sat 26-Mar-22 17:20:33

Obviously you're not ever going to change your mind.
Neither am I.

So there's no point in this thread.

GagaJo Sat 26-Mar-22 17:21:18

I heard you snowberryZ.

Please don't talk down to me.

GagaJo Sat 26-Mar-22 17:21:45

You're not obliged to participate.

Allsorts Sat 26-Mar-22 17:34:16

I couldn’t disagree more with the op. It’s another thread about trans.
I am a woman, yes I was a tomboy growing up, no one pigeon holed me, however I liked bikes, cars, climbing trees that girls my age did not do. I did not like cuddly toys, dolls in prams, cooking or washing up, that’s why I was more comfortable with the boys, far less complicated than girl friends. Then on reaching my teens I changed I was attracted to boys, got interested in clothes, my passion, hair and make up. I was very much a woman in the making. No one stereotyped me, just let me be. Been married twice and in between various relationships. I think this latest craze of putting everyone into a category ridiculous. Let people develop in their own way and become the people they are. The internet and ardent campaigners do more harm than good.

Smileless2012 Sat 26-Mar-22 17:50:05

The internet and ardent campaigners do more harm than good yes they do Allsorts.

Let people develop in their own way and become the people they are absolutely and let them do so without trying to deny the simple and irrefutable fact, that a woman is an adult female and a man can never be a woman, any more than a woman can become a man.

Witzend Sat 26-Mar-22 17:56:39

I don’t see that we’re ‘biologically diverse’ - we’re all XX.

Differences in personality, character, preferences, though - that’s another matter entirely, and as we all know, they may vary enormously.

Herefornow Sat 26-Mar-22 18:01:17

Given that there are people living in our society with, for example, XXY chromosomes... What are they then?

Also, the lgb community would probably have few rights if not for the trans community. The first pride was a riot started and lead by transwomen who were objecting to police brutality of the lgbt+ community at the stonewall inn in New York.

VS isn't the only one revisiting the topic, many of you do. Why is she the only one being mocked for it?

Mollygo Sat 26-Mar-22 18:05:41

snowberryZ
The trouble is Mykrona, the majority of male to female transitioners no longer opt to have bottom surgery.
Even though they feminise themselves in every other way, most transwomen decide to retain their male genitalia. Apparently they use certain tucking and strapping methods so that it doesn't show when wearing dresses.

This is what all the furore is about.
Any man who has decided to self identify as a woman can now access previously women only spaces.

The likelihood is that males who are desperate to be women have been doing that since before the word ‘trans’ was invented.
Those who were desperate to appear as women were unlikely to visit women’s toilets and demonstrate that they were male or to attack females.
There are still those who wish to protect their chosen persona.

However, some males see the chance to pretend they are a woman as an opportunity for wrong doing.
You know what I’m going to say:
-Failed male athletes who claim they are women to cheat women out of their rewards.
-males who see access to female spaces e.g. women’s refuges, female hospital wards, female toilets etc as an opportunity to perpetuate further abuse on already traumatised females.
- Criminals, who claim to be women either to have a chance to perpetrate further harm to women, or because they see female prisons as an easier option.
Et al.
I hear claims on here that this is only a very small percent of TW.
That small percentage are making life difficult for the other TW, and increasing the necessity to preserve female rights to safe spaces, single sex sport, single sex toilets-all I mentioned above.
People including some females who claim that TW have rights that override the needs for these safe spaces are facilitating the potential for harm to women.
Will they understand that?
No.
I don’t want to go down the road of saying all TM and TW must declare themselves as a transwoman or a transman. The largest percentage of trans mean no harm and prefer anonymity.
There are posters who refuse to acknowledge that sex is immutable. This is my mantra for them.
Trans Men are Transmen not male, and Trans Women Are Transwomen not female.

Rosie51 Sat 26-Mar-22 18:12:13

Given that there are people living in our society with, for example, XXY chromosomes... What are they then? they'll be a male with Klinefelter syndrome.

Ilovecheese Sat 26-Mar-22 18:17:15

Herefornow You asked the question: "Given that there are people living in our society with, for example, XXY chromosomes... What are they then?"
They are males with an extra chromosome. They will have XXY chromosomes for all their lives.

Ilovecheese Sat 26-Mar-22 18:17:38

Sorry Rosie51 crossed posts

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 18:20:46

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/17/age-nothing-do-with-it-transition-later-life-transgender

GagaJo Sat 26-Mar-22 18:26:17

Exactly, Herefornow. There are a multiplicity of ways to be a human, with many variants. But sex/gender are the most policed of categories. The system isn't going to go down without an almighty battle. All part of the process.

Rosie51 Sat 26-Mar-22 18:28:39

No problem Ilovecheese smile Always good to be able to demonstrate there are only two sexes, even if there are a few instances of variations in chromosomes.

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 18:30:57

Everything on this planet evolved from the same sludge

It's not impossible to change sex in lots of places

Science has never reached a fixed point on anything as far as I'm aware

Rosie51 Sat 26-Mar-22 18:39:44

It's not impossible to change sex in lots of places really? What mammal, not even going to ask about humans, has ever changed sex?

Mollygo Sat 26-Mar-22 19:01:51

VS
It's not impossible to change sex in lots of places,
Rosie51
Really? What mammal, not even going to ask about humans, has ever changed sex?
Meaning their gametes have been altered?

And even if a mammal could be proved to have changed sex, what relevance would that have?
I can’t remember who commented that we all came from sludge, but I’d be surprised if anyone, even that poster still regards themselves as sludge, or sees themselves as no different from a rat. Really scraping the bottom of the barrel with “ it’s not impossible to change sex”

ExperiencedNotOld Sat 26-Mar-22 19:16:36

It’s a long while since I last visited GN. Goodness, have you got nothing better to argue about?
I’ve just researched intersectional feminism. Why worry about it?
I treat everyone as I find them. Do me no harm and I’ll welcome you, and expect the same in return. I know people and worry nothing of their pigeonholing. Find a hobby why don’t you.

Galaxy Sat 26-Mar-22 19:21:24

Goodness have you nothing better to do than come on a forum and tell people what to discuss.