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What is a woman?

(210 Posts)
VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 12:27:16

What is a woman to me?

I feel in modern times women are being reduced to sex categories, ignoring our vast and varied biology. The very biology that for years has allowed women to be stereotyped, seen as weaker and even seen as so great in difference to other women, women were enslaved and sold.

Biology as diverse as a woman's has caused so many non white women pain and fear yet the biology of women is now somehow fixed?

Sojourner Truth "Ain't I a woman?"

Yet we are all women and that must be respected while acknowledging our differences, our separate struggles, our journeys to claiming our womanhood. The discriminations other women have faced that we don't and the discriminations other women have faced that we do because of biological diversity.

Some simply see women as one simple biological fact, men and women. Nothing else.

Some of us see it as a rainbow, A beautiful spectrum of difference and diversity. Men, women, trans, non binary people, all valid.

I wasn't born a woman, I was born a baby, I became a child, on an equal footing with boys, running and jumping and getting dirty in the mud. What was there to tell us apart but the hair and clothes chosen for us by adults?

I wasn't born a woman, society told me I was one when I reached physical maturity. Society told me what to wear, how to act.

Am I a woman? I choose my own hair, my own clothes, my personality and how to express myself in the ways that other women do that I enjoy as an individual.

Can anyone look at me and declare my womanhood undoubtedly? Probably but only because that is what I choose and how I express myself. Is that true of all people? No.

You see everything about who I am as a woman is on the inside. Its in my thoughts, my opinions, my appreciation of beautiful things, the way I would like to look, the clothes I would like to wear, in the things I appreciate about friends and family, the strength I have for my children, the love and the pure determination to be a good mother.

I am a woman on the inside, not the outside. That's how I identify. I can change the outside. I can gain or lose weight, I can wear more or less make up, I can cut my hair or grow it out. I can have my body surgically altered but who I am on the inside remains the same.

I am one woman amongst a world of biologically diverse women, not a single one of us looks exactly the same, we don't all choose to express our gender identity visually at all, yet still identify as women.

It is the same for trans women.

I am a woman and so is she.

Yammy Sat 26-Mar-22 19:31:14

Germanshepherdsmum

Not another trans thread! Two started in one day, as you know VS because you’ve already posted on the other one. These threads always go the same way, and become unpleasant. What a is the point of this constant ‘discussion’ between the same people? I think all of us know everyone else’s stance by now.

I am a woman I have xx chromosomes, ovaries and a uterus,I could when younger if I choose to, bare a child by mating with a man.
I agree with the above. It is getting repetitive and just becoming a few of you on your own personal agendas. Gransnet is not a Transgender forum and you cannot expect every one of us to support or even read your personal posts.

Ilovecheese Sat 26-Mar-22 19:32:34

Galaxy

Goodness have you nothing better to do than come on a forum and tell people what to discuss.

I think ExperiencedNotOld just needs a hobby.

ExperiencedNotOld Sat 26-Mar-22 19:41:07

I’m not telling you anything, I’m just suggesting that you’re wasting your life on such things. smile.
Who are you to look for confrontation? wink.

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 19:49:29

There needed to be pro trans threads that accept trans women are women.

I don't regret it

Galaxy Sat 26-Mar-22 19:49:39

I am quite happy with my life thanks. You dont seem that serene though.

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 20:01:22

Also I do have to ask, if those who are accepting of trans people are losing the arguments and in the minority

Then why are people of all ages still transitioning and legally changing their gender?

Why is the medical community based in science still as a whole saying that the only treatment fro gender dysphoria is transition?

Why do people have the right to use the toilets and changing spaces of the gender they identify with?

Why is the actual government on power, starting with Teresa May actually protecting trans rights if Labour are now the bad guys in the trans front?

I don't think the gender critical or worried women or however people identify is going to grow any more than it already has in the last 6 years honestly.

I think the way forward is to accept people's gender identity, respect their pronouns and focus on safeguarding where it is needed to make all of us feel safe.

Galaxy Sat 26-Mar-22 21:27:32

I think many countries are moving away from affirmation VS in particular with regards to young prople. The interim cass report seems to be saying that even social transition is not a neutral activity and that more data is needed.

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 21:47:37

That's a bit worrying galaxy but I don't see how we could possibly remove protected rights here and if we allowed that, who would be next?

Smileless2012 Sat 26-Mar-22 21:50:59

I do wish that these discussions would focus on what is actually being said.

I have not seen anyone say they don't accept trans women. What is being said time and time again is not accepting women's safe spaces being compromised; not accepting unfair competition in sports; not having an event or a day which is for women being taken over by trans activists; not having women subjected too the threat of act if violence for speaking the truth, when we we say that a trans woman is not a woman.

You don't have to accept that trans women are women to be pro trans and saying they are not, does not make someone anti trans.

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 22:23:33

The gender Recognition act of 2004 does change people's legal sex. So trans women with a GRC are legally recognised as women with a very few circumstantial exceptions.

The Equality Act 2010 forbids discrimination against those who are undergoing or have undergone "a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning a person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex".

So trans women are legally women and saying they aren't is technically discriminating in the eyes of the law.

The law also protects some single sex spaces as needed so it should be OK to say trans women are women and women need safe spaces when applicable without anyone minding.

Galaxy Sat 26-Mar-22 22:27:12

Its not technically discrimination to say you cant change sex, that was tested in the forstater case.

Smileless2012 Sat 26-Mar-22 22:27:59

Trans women are not women; they are not adult females.

Mollygo Sat 26-Mar-22 22:30:13

Transwomen are not biologically women. Most transwomen do not believe that they are women.
Most transwomen are not violent predators.
Most transwomen deplore the actions of those claiming transwomanhood in order to access safe places for women, competing against females etc.
Those TW who do not deplore those actions are those who want to carry them out.
Some females support that.

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 22:35:51

I'm only telling you what the law states, it's not reply worth disagreeing with me about it, I didn't write it but if you are legally wrong to call a trans woman a man then that is the case.

I'm not going to report you for it

Galaxy Sat 26-Mar-22 22:37:34

Gender critical beliefs are protected by law VS.

Doodledog Sat 26-Mar-22 22:42:10

In answer to 'what is a woman?' there are many possibilities. There are the 'rainbow' ones, and there are less saccharine realities.

Compared to men, women are more likely to be raped. More likely to be badly paid. Much less likely to get a decent pension. More likely to be discriminated against at work. Women have to pay for tampons. And HRT. And nappies. Women are more likely to have solo childcare to deal with after divorce.

If 'women' becomes a word that includes transwomen (who have to deal with none of the above, whether they 'identify' as women or not), how will there be policies or campaigns or even discussions that can improve things?

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 22:46:11

Well I just cannot see or understand how it is possible to accept trans women and say a trans woman is a man.

It makes no logical sense to me

Especially when you can agree a trans woman is a woman while still protecting women's safe spaces... Legally

That's the only difference between me and most in discussion, my simple acceptance that a trans women is a woman and I will call her by her chosen pronouns

Realistically there shouldn't be any problems that I hold that belief but I'm still having lots of thoughts and feelings assigned to me simply for saying trans women are women.

That's not logical if you are accepting of trans women so that's where I get stuck on where I stand with others in this discussion

I'm either stupid and boring and gaslighting and passive aggressive and I don't care about women or violence done against women or women's safe spaces

or

actually I do which is what I have said from the very beginning and what I will keep saying..

Which is it exactly?

Are you going to tell me who I am or am I allowed to say so for myself?

grannydarkhair Sat 26-Mar-22 22:48:16

In the recent case of Harry Miller, the judgement said that GC beliefs and their expression are protected under both the Equality Act and Articles 9 and 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and “those beliefs are not inherently bigoted or transphobic”.

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 22:53:42

grannydarkhair what are those gender critical beliefs exactly that are protected?

Because I think that is also covered in the act in that biological sex can be addressed but that legally a trans women is a women

Women is not the same as female?

Galaxy Sat 26-Mar-22 22:54:24

We hold a different a belief to you VS. Thats all really.

Galaxy Sat 26-Mar-22 22:56:43

VS do you think GN and MN are breaking the law?

grannydarkhair Sat 26-Mar-22 23:05:05

VioletSky I’m hopeless at linking to articles, but the HM case was only at the end of last year, there’s lots of information about it online. That’s the best I can offer.

Cherrytree59 Sat 26-Mar-22 23:08:09

Many Women XX.

Live through excruciating period pain.

Give birth which without pain relief is also excruciating painful.

Some sadly have to endure miscarriage(s) this is also excruciating painful mentally and physically

Give birth to a still born baby.
Excruciating painful mentally and physically

Suffer conditions such as endometriosis also excruciating mentally and physically.

Then of course there is the menopause ...
Brain fog. Hot flushes, night sweats, loss of bone density etc etc .

Please don't tell me that a Transwoman can 'feel' understand or relate to any of the above!!!!

VioletSky Sat 26-Mar-22 23:10:05

Galaxy

We hold a different a belief to you VS. Thats all really.

There is nothing wrong with that. If that is as far as it went I'd be more than happy.

I disagree with lots of people, especially politically.

Like generslly I get on fine with those who are fiscally right wing as an example, I don't agree but no issues

There aren't actually many socially right wing people but I can't seem to get along with those who are

To me it's a fundamental problem when people are not valued or treated equally. That's a case by case basis generally as it is for all of us because we judge the people in front of us. The news holds many people up for that judgement which is frustrating as its not a reflection of every day life in many demographics.

If someone walks up to me and tells me they are a woman or presents as a women, then they are a woman... I cannot sit in judgement because I don't know, I don't understand, I am not them, I haven't lived their experiences and most of the time I cannot see their undercarriages.

So I just cannot say anything except trans women are women.

It's not an attack on anyone, it's not angry, it's not a reflection of any other aspect of my thoughts or feelings on any topic.... It just is my understanding of what is asked of me by the equality act and who I see when I look at trans women.

grannydarkhair Sat 26-Mar-22 23:14:10

The title of this thread asked “What is a woman?”
Here’s one definition - “a member of the female sex class, the class who continually have to re-assert their personhood, the class who are not allowed to centre themselves, the class who are constantly expected to put their needs aside for others, and finally, the class who are tired of this BS!”
It’s a definition from an American woman, so the language is slightly different from what many of us on G’net would use. But it sums up exactly how I feel.