But is it weird? I’m not convinced
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What is a woman?
(210 Posts)What is a woman to me?
I feel in modern times women are being reduced to sex categories, ignoring our vast and varied biology. The very biology that for years has allowed women to be stereotyped, seen as weaker and even seen as so great in difference to other women, women were enslaved and sold.
Biology as diverse as a woman's has caused so many non white women pain and fear yet the biology of women is now somehow fixed?
Sojourner Truth "Ain't I a woman?"
Yet we are all women and that must be respected while acknowledging our differences, our separate struggles, our journeys to claiming our womanhood. The discriminations other women have faced that we don't and the discriminations other women have faced that we do because of biological diversity.
Some simply see women as one simple biological fact, men and women. Nothing else.
Some of us see it as a rainbow, A beautiful spectrum of difference and diversity. Men, women, trans, non binary people, all valid.
I wasn't born a woman, I was born a baby, I became a child, on an equal footing with boys, running and jumping and getting dirty in the mud. What was there to tell us apart but the hair and clothes chosen for us by adults?
I wasn't born a woman, society told me I was one when I reached physical maturity. Society told me what to wear, how to act.
Am I a woman? I choose my own hair, my own clothes, my personality and how to express myself in the ways that other women do that I enjoy as an individual.
Can anyone look at me and declare my womanhood undoubtedly? Probably but only because that is what I choose and how I express myself. Is that true of all people? No.
You see everything about who I am as a woman is on the inside. Its in my thoughts, my opinions, my appreciation of beautiful things, the way I would like to look, the clothes I would like to wear, in the things I appreciate about friends and family, the strength I have for my children, the love and the pure determination to be a good mother.
I am a woman on the inside, not the outside. That's how I identify. I can change the outside. I can gain or lose weight, I can wear more or less make up, I can cut my hair or grow it out. I can have my body surgically altered but who I am on the inside remains the same.
I am one woman amongst a world of biologically diverse women, not a single one of us looks exactly the same, we don't all choose to express our gender identity visually at all, yet still identify as women.
It is the same for trans women.
I am a woman and so is she.
That is SUPER interesting and very weird.
I doubt it.
But is it weird? No. And neither is it particularly interesting.
There are some folk who are British by birth.
Others were born elsewhere then came to our country for various reasons vand then decided to be British by choice.
We should accept them and welcome them.
In the same way most of us Grannies were born female, but there may be some who were not, but decided to become female. I can only imagine how difficult that decision might have been.
I think we should also welcome them to our sisterhood.
That is really nice varian. I agree. I am a Granny and so is she. ❤❤❤❤❤❤
GagaJo
*So why not change that sort of idiocy and let people be accepted however they walk, talk or behave? It wouldn't happen overnight, but it doesn't take ages bring about a shift attitudes.*
Because sex/gender is the bedrock of our society.
I think people can understand people wanting to change to be the opposite sex better than they can understand no gender representation at all.
I'm not convinced.
People's attitudes change radically about all sorts of things. In my lifetime I can think of (off the top of my head) attitudes to sex before marriage, homosexuality, smoking, women working - all have changed beyond recognition.
I don't think it has to be no gender at all, though - just that we could reduce the link between gender and sex.
Have you seen the outrage and uproar on here when it is suggested that we do away with the term woman? Or go to gender neutral language?
It is entrenched. Man becomes woman? OKish. Woman becomes man? Hmmm. No women/men, just people? Hell no.
That's not what I'm talking about though. I mean that we could encourage people not to expect men to behave in one way and women in another.
You would still have men and women, based on sex. Still have male and female sports, prisons, loos. But nobody would care if boys wore dresses or whatever. Basically extend what is happening already, so that people wouldn't feel that they have to change sex to behave as they wish.
As it stands, people have a sex, and are expected, to a degree, to conform to gender norms related to that sex. Some don't want to conform and say that they 'feel like' the other sex, but nobody seems sure what that actually means.
Instead of changing sex, why not let them conform to the other sex's gender norms without eyebrows being raised - shift the gender norms, so that people don't feel the need to change sex.
It’s not outrage and uproar, simply condemnation of the stupidity of those who think they know better than science.
It’s entrenched you say.
You want the lie that males can become females to be entrenched because you think your lie is more deserving of entrenchment than the truth.
Oh dear.
When I suggested that, many years ago, when I first started exploring transgender (as it used to be called), I was told that as a cis woman, I didn't understand how unsuccessful that was, and that it was insulting for me (as a cis woman) to suggest that.
So I haven't. I've listened to what the trans people I know want. Their bodies. Their lives.
And if we successfully do away with gender norms and people still want to change their bodies and hormones to look and sound more like the other sex...
Can we accept trans people then?
And ignored what the women I know want. which is trans to get on with their lives uninterrupted, as many of them do, and women to have protection from harmful trans who give transgender a bad name.
I don’t know any trans who endorse trans violence against women or TW cheating in female sport or deny women their rights. When I point out that that endorsement is coming from some misogynistic females, sadly, they are not surprised.
People don't give anyone a bad name except themselves.
It's literally discrimination to say that
It's like calling the police on a black person in your neighbourhood because of a preconceived idea and why movements like BLM exist
My point is this. Everything comes round to trans by whatever means. The original post what is a woman, turn out to be yet another way to bang on about Trans. I am fed up with it, you have your views others have theirs, it’s like death by a thousand cuts, however much I’m told I have to think one way I will still make up my own mind. I’m not bothered in the least, let people be, it’s not a crusade in my eyes. But I do wish everything wasn’t railroaded to the same subject Trans, it’s boring, I made a mistake if responding to the op. Over and out.
A trans inclusive post was needed even if some deemed it not allowable
It's my first thread on the topic
It's an answer to a question that was being asked over and over and over
It's my honest answer
People are free to reply or not, I haven't complained
VS, please explain to me why, as I assume someone who was born a woman as you have five children, you are so utterly obsessed with trans women. I really don’t understand this apparent obsession. I haven’t noticed you posting on other issues other than to talk about your experience of childhood abuse or your narcissistic mother. Forgive me if you have posted on other matters but what I overwhelmingly see is your concentration on these particular matters. What is driving this?
GagaJo
When I suggested that, many years ago, when I first started exploring transgender (as it used to be called), I was told that as a cis woman, I didn't understand how unsuccessful that was, and that it was insulting for me (as a cis woman) to suggest that.
So I haven't. I've listened to what the trans people I know want. Their bodies. Their lives.
Are you talking about removing strict gender norms?
If so - why was it considered insulting?
Germanshepherdsmum
*VS*, please explain to me why, as I assume someone who was born a woman as you have five children, you are so utterly obsessed with trans women. I really don’t understand this apparent obsession. I haven’t noticed you posting on other issues other than to talk about your experience of childhood abuse or your narcissistic mother. Forgive me if you have posted on other matters but what I overwhelmingly see is your concentration on these particular matters. What is driving this?
Erm, I comment on lots of things and when it comes to trans threads well, I wouldn't say I comment the most..
Wouldn't you need to also be present to notice?
Unless you count when I had covid recently as I was stuck in bed as I actually wasn't too well and I really didn't want my autistic daughter to catch it again.
Other than that I work Monday to Friday.
What is driving this?
Well, I do like a good discussion. Is that OK?
I haven't really talked mentioned my mother for a while, not really given her much thought really. Not sure I comment most on that forum either
Oh please don't ask GSH
Tbh (factoring covid in) I don't think I'm the person to ask anyway... I'm probably top 5 for comments on trans issues but not top 3
GSM, how long have you got?
Doodledog
GagaJo
When I suggested that, many years ago, when I first started exploring transgender (as it used to be called), I was told that as a cis woman, I didn't understand how unsuccessful that was, and that it was insulting for me (as a cis woman) to suggest that.
So I haven't. I've listened to what the trans people I know want. Their bodies. Their lives.Are you talking about removing strict gender norms?
If so - why was it considered insulting?
I think it was that as a non trans person, it wasn't my place to consider alternatives.
Those choices and decisions are for trans people to make. Not an 'easier fix' that suits those of us it doesn't really affect.
Germanshepherdsmum
*VS*, please explain to me why, as I assume someone who was born a woman as you have five children, you are so utterly obsessed with trans women. I really don’t understand this apparent obsession. I haven’t noticed you posting on other issues other than to talk about your experience of childhood abuse or your narcissistic mother. Forgive me if you have posted on other matters but what I overwhelmingly see is your concentration on these particular matters. What is driving this?
This also applies to some individuals on the other side of the topic.
The debate about which, is at the moment, remaining a lot more civil and polite than usual. Long may it continue!
GagaJo
Doodledog
GagaJo
When I suggested that, many years ago, when I first started exploring transgender (as it used to be called), I was told that as a cis woman, I didn't understand how unsuccessful that was, and that it was insulting for me (as a cis woman) to suggest that.
So I haven't. I've listened to what the trans people I know want. Their bodies. Their lives.Are you talking about removing strict gender norms?
If so - why was it considered insulting?I think it was that as a non trans person, it wasn't my place to consider alternatives.
Those choices and decisions are for trans people to make. Not an 'easier fix' that suits those of us it doesn't really affect.
Up to a point I get that, but it does affect us, as per all the arguments on these threads.
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