What is a woman?

VioletSky

The gender Recognition act of 2004 does change people's legal sex. So trans women with a GRC are legally recognised as women with a very few circumstantial exceptions.

The Equality Act 2010 forbids discrimination against those who are undergoing or have undergone "a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning a person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex".

So trans women are legally women and saying they aren't is technically discriminating in the eyes of the law.

The law also protects some single sex spaces as needed so it should be OK to say trans women are women and women need safe spaces when applicable without anyone minding.

Transwomen with a GRC are legally women (even though it is a legal fiction, they haven't actually changed sex) but any self ID transwomen are not legally women
The law also protects some single sex spaces as needed so it should be OK to say trans women are women and women need safe spaces when applicable without anyone minding. so transwomen are women (not transwomen) and women need safe spaces........so if you do not differentiate between women and transwomen how do you know which women can go in the safe space and which can't? To you they're all 'women' Ah yes it's that 'single sex' again. But haven't you said you can change sex? This is what comes from muddled unscientific thinking.

Dr Debbie Hayton, transwoman, scientist and journalist who often proclaims ( and has the tshirt too!) that transwomen are male, get over it. She is under no illusion that humans can change sex even though she says she's a transexual having had full reassignment surgery. She thinks Lia Thomas being male should not be swimming against women. TRAs say Lia is a woman because Lia says she is. Do you accept that maybe she has a fuller understanding of the situation and conflict of interests? Difficult isn't it? Debbie does as far as I know use women's toilets but being post reassignment surgery I don't think she'd be perceived as a threat to anyone, and presents as very inoffensive.

Fionne Orlander, a transwoman who in most cases would 'pass' uses male toilets because she thinks that's the honest thing to do even though she'd likely never be challenged in a female toilet. There are many transwomen who acknowledge you can't change sex and fully respect biological women and their separate rights.

I do wonder how many people who think you can assume the mantle of woman also agree with assuming the mantle of a different race? If someone truly believes they should have been born a different ethnicity should they be able to identify as that ethnicity?

If I wasn't differentiating in protected circumstances or for other reasons I would just say women but there are also areas where it is important to differentiate to ensure everyone receives the support or services they need so I use trans with woman in discussion because I am trying to show respect to everyone and their journeys to womanhood. People show respect in different ways and it's still respect.

With trans friends there is no need to say anything at all. Just their name and pronouns are fine.

Because of biological diversity and how that can be expressed race can be tricky. There are as an example, 1 set of non identical twins I know of born to a couple where one is white and one is black and their twin girls have been born showing each parents DNA, one looks white and one looks black, yet both have claim to both sets of heritage. It's who they are on the inside.

Whether claiming a race you are not is valid I haven't really given it much thought. One of those twins as an example will go though life perhaps not facing any of the discrimination her twin might but that doesn't change her heritage... Wouls she be wrong to try to show it?

So it's difficult, I don't know what I think, it's not something I've really come accross and I'm not sure it's the same thing really. It's would guess it's generally frowned on as disrespectful because it's been deliberately disrespectful in the past. Whether a person doing what you describe is being disrespectful... I just don't know. Whether that is OK, I just don't know.

Why do you people constantly make this about sex when it's about gender, its exhausting.

Do you consider that this 'prove it with surgery' attitude could lead to more young people having surgery that they later regret?

Herefornow

Why do you people constantly make this about sex when it's about gender, its exhausting.

Do you consider that this 'prove it with surgery' attitude could lead to more young people having surgery that they later regret?

eh ? I'm sorry I do not follow this at all. Surely biological sex is the only constant, it can't be changed. Everything else is just fluff. Dress how you like, give yourself any name you like, live how you like, but respect single sex spaces and don't lie about your sex.

Because of biological diversity and how that can be expressed race can be tricky. There are as an example, 1 set of non identical twins I know of born to a couple where one is white and one is black and their twin girls have been born showing each parents DNA, one looks white and one looks black, yet both have claim to both sets of heritage. It's who they are on the inside
Yes there are media stories of such twins, how lovely to know such a set personally. That maybe illustrates my point. The twin that externally exhibits black chromosomes may feel closer to the white parent and heritage, while the reverse may be true of the 'white presenting twin' who may feel closer to the black parent. I'm currently awaiting the sex reveal of identical twin grandchildren and wonder whether they will identify/resemble their white parent or their black parent. Whichever, they will be identical and will be identified as such and will have to live with that identification. And I look forward to their birth and will love them the same no matter their external presentation!

Congratulations!

I'm still waiting to be a grandparent, the younger of my AC will make that happen sooner I think. I have 5 children and think I will be overwhelmed one day as even the younger children say they want a big family too.

Well the clocks jumped, I can never sleep until they do for some reason.

Good night

Congratulations Rosie51. That’s really exciting news and I’m sure you will love them however they present.

You have to wonder at the constant reference and bias of Trans that some people have. Methinks it’s protesting too much.

Congratulations Rosie.

Many congratulations Rosie51

Exciting news Rosie51

Congratulations, Rosie - how lovely!

I'm sure they will both be close to their granny, whatever colour you are .

Allsorts

You have to wonder at the constant reference and bias of Trans that some people have. Methinks it’s protesting too much.

Not sure about your point Allsorts?

Unfortunately, there is a lot of anti-trans bias around. As long as we can discuss and communicate, hopefully that bias will eventually dissipate.

You must be so excited Rosie51, is this a first GC for you?

VS, your GC will be fortunate that whatever shape, colour, creed or sex/gender representation, you'll love and support them.

Rosie51

Herefornow

Why do you people constantly make this about sex when it's about gender, its exhausting.

Do you consider that this 'prove it with surgery' attitude could lead to more young people having surgery that they later regret?

eh ? I'm sorry I do not follow this at all. Surely biological sex is the only constant, it can't be changed. Everything else is just fluff. Dress how you like, give yourself any name you like, live how you like, but respect single sex spaces and don't lie about your sex.

People can 'identify' any how and in any number of ways they like and should keep their human dignity and respect from others regardless. that's 'gender', which is actually a linguistic term, not a scientific one. This is why we can talk about, for example, la mesa (table) in the feminine 'gender'.

There are two sexes and sex can't be changed. That's why there is a problem when a male says he is a woman or a female says she is a man.

Funny how no-one asks "what is a man?"

Actually Baggs, there is a huge field of study into how masculinity / maleness / being a 'man' is constructed. It's a very rigidly enforced category. Perhaps more so than being a woman, because after all, it's OK to be a tomboy/butch (to a degree) woman. Any man who is effeminate is automatically assumed to be gay. Which is definitely not always the case.

Transmen can take courses into how to 'walk like a man', as a metaphor for how to translate their automatic movement / attitudes into acceptably male behaviour.

Not sure if monkeys have been mentioned but there has been experiments with male and female monkeys and toys. The males predominately. played with the boy toys, trucks, cars etc and the females played with the dolls.

I don't think they have been forced into any societal norm.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-29418230

Zoejory, there’s a whole other interesting debate to be had on the differences between male and female animals. I know more about dogs and horses than monkeys.

So why not change that sort of idiocy and let people be accepted however they walk, talk or behave? It wouldn't happen overnight, but it doesn't take ages bring about a shift attitudes.

I'm sure that far more people would be able to accept that, than are able to accept that TWAW. It might be less complicated when it came to relationships (eg for a heterosexual man identifying as a woman), it would cut down on concerns about spaces and sports teams, cut back on the numbers of young people who regret transitioning, and generally make more sense all round, unless I am missing something?

No, DD you’re not missing anything, but some seeds will fall on stony ground.

Doodledog
Pharmaceutical companies would lose some of their market if people could be accepted just as they are.

So why not change that sort of idiocy and let people be accepted however they walk, talk or behave? It wouldn't happen overnight, but it doesn't take ages bring about a shift attitudes.

Because sex/gender is the bedrock of our society.

I think people can understand people wanting to change to be the opposite sex better than they can understand no gender representation at all.

Zoejory

Not sure if monkeys have been mentioned but there has been experiments with male and female monkeys and toys. The males predominately. played with the boy toys, trucks, cars etc and the females played with the dolls.

I don't think they have been forced into any societal norm.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-29418230

That is SUPER interesting and very weird.