the law as it stands on sex

Feminism is about supporting women to have the same rights as men, and ensuring that when their rights are different (eg right surrounding maternity or gynaecology) that they are still considered important.

It is not about blind support for individuals simply because they are (or identify as) women. Nor is it about supporting people who are not (or who do not identify as) women, as that can not be feminism, however it is dressed up.

I will try to work out how privileged I have been through life...can't quite see it yet lol ?

I would say that anyone posting on here is relatively privileged. Nevertheless, I would also say that telling women and girls not to compete with men and boys is the antithesis of feminism.

I'm not competitive personally - I tend to coast - but that's because of my personality, not my sex (or gender). I see no reason why alpha women shouldn't compete with men, just as I see no reason why beta men should feel that they should have to. We should all do what makes us happy, recognise that we are not all alike, and not feel the need to force ourselves into 'gender-based' stereotypes, or value one set of personality traits over another.

So, trisher, would you support these girls who want to be boys who are bullying girls who don’t want to be boys?
To make it easier for you, do you support bullies?

Thank you for answering trisher but any feminist worth their salt, indeed anyone with common sense recognises "there are differences in the degrees of oppression women suffer and the privilege they experience".

You don't have to be an 'intersectional feminist' to recognise this.

Now Nadhim Zahawi has said that a woman is an adult human female. The Conservatives are really weaponising this issue against Starmer's shilly shallying.

Smileless2012

Thank you for answering trisher but any feminist worth their salt, indeed anyone with common sense recognises "there are differences in the degrees of oppression women suffer and the privilege they experience".

You don't have to be an 'intersectional feminist' to recognise this.

But ironically enough, that was why the feminist movement split. Because a lot of women said that white liberal feminism wasn't recognising the intersection of discrimination women that weren't white, middle class, western feminists faced.

So, 2nd wave feminism brought the split on itself. Perhaps if they had been open to others not like them, we wouldn't be in this position of having different types of feminists now.

The only people we hate more than fascists are the 2nd Wave Feminists!

Aren't we the 2nd Wave Feminists?

Er, no! We became the 2nd Wave Feminists when we split from the 1st Wave Feminists

Bastards!

Yeah, all of them, but as I was saying, we're not them any longer! No, we are Intersectional Feminists, and don't you forget it!

Down With 2nd Wave Feminists!! So what is an Intersectional Feminist then?

( consults Gender Studies For Dummies ) Er, well, we stick up for everyone. We see everyone's needs and stick up for them. Everyone will be included.

Everyone? Whether they want to be included or not?

Yes! That's the beauty of it! Some of them don't even know they are really feminists - many of them don't even like women - but we can see their needs and we will include them. That's intersectional feminism for you.

Oh. So that includes men then?

Sigh. Yes.

And misogynists? And sexists? And those brocialist guys? I thought we didn't like them?

FFS, Gladys! We include everyone. We are Intersectional and recognise the interdependence of all sections of society.

Incels?

Er, probably. In fact, yes! Incels have needs too.

Well, yes. But they are rarely satisfied, are they? See, I thought that feminism was set up to see off the sexists, and the misogynists, and the brocialists, and specially the Incels. Are you sure we have to include them?

I'd better ask Fred. She's co-ordinating the AGM just now, but I'll ask her when she gets back. I've got to get the dinner on now, so it's ready when she gets home . . .

Doodledog

The only people we hate more than fascists are the 2nd Wave Feminists!

Aren't we the 2nd Wave Feminists?

Er, no! We became the 2nd Wave Feminists when we split from the 1st Wave Feminists

Bastards!

Yeah, all of them, but as I was saying, we're not them any longer! No, we are Intersectional Feminists, and don't you forget it!

Down With 2nd Wave Feminists!! So what is an Intersectional Feminist then?

( consults Gender Studies For Dummies ) Er, well, we stick up for everyone. We see everyone's needs and stick up for them. Everyone will be included.

Everyone? Whether they want to be included or not?

Yes! That's the beauty of it! Some of them don't even know they are really feminists - many of them don't even like women - but we can see their needs and we will include them. That's intersectional feminism for you.

Oh. So that includes men then?

Sigh. Yes.

And misogynists? And sexists? And those brocialist guys? I thought we didn't like them?

FFS, Gladys! We include everyone. We are Intersectional and recognise the interdependence of all sections of society.

Incels?

Er, probably. In fact, yes! Incels have needs too.

Well, yes. But they are rarely satisfied, are they? See, I thought that feminism was set up to see off the sexists, and the misogynists, and the brocialists, and specially the Incels. Are you sure we have to include them?

I'd better ask Fred. She's co-ordinating the AGM just now, but I'll ask her when she gets back. I've got to get the dinner on now, so it's ready when she gets home . . .

Well if that's how you feel Doodledog.
But for the record.
1st wave feminists were the women who fought for the vote- suffragettes and suffragists
2nd Wave feminists were the women who marched an demonstrated in the 1970s. They objected to men and wanted equality with them. They thought this would be achieved through legislation and equality law.
3rd wave feminists emerged in the 1990s. They are a varied group which embraces many different feminist aims. Intersectional femiism is part of that.
It is something which divides generations

Rebecca Walker, in To Be Real: Telling the Truth and Changing the Face of Feminism (1995), wrote about her fear of rejection by her mother (Alice Walker) and her godmother (Gloria Steinem) for challenging their views:
Young Women feminists find themselves watching their speech and tone in their works so as not to upset their elder feminist mothers. There is a definite gap among feminists who consider themselves to be second-wave and those who would label themselves as third-wave. Although, the age criteria for second-wave feminists and third-wave feminists is murky, younger feminists definitely have a hard time proving themselves worthy as feminist scholars and activists.
But sadly for some it is just an opportunity to make bad jokes.

?

I know. Some people, eh?

Doodledog, ??

My younger feminist daughter is appalled at the overruling of female rights by trans AND those women (2004) whose aim is to support mens ability to override women.

Young Women feminists find themselves watching their speech and tone in their works so as not to upset their elder feminist mothers

Well not ALL of them! My daughter included, but of course it spends how young "young" is. My 21 year old niece certainly doesn't either!

..younger feminists definitely have a hard time proving themselves worthy as feminist scholars and activists

Older feminists appear to have a hard time proving themselves worthy as feminists atall sometimes, on Gransnet, as far as I can see!

...although I have read the Rebecca Walker book and it is an interesting analysis and perpective!

I know one very notable 2nd wave feminist who has seamlessly segued into an intersectional feminist. A very notable woman, who started a gay helpline, has been a major figure in lesbian feminist writing & a professor in 3 different UK universities. A very admirable woman who has moved with the times. Despite being 30 years older than me, she continues to be an incredible example.

I don't know what I am any more
I thought I knew once, so did Helen Reddy .......

The point is not that people aren't moving with the times. It's that descriptions of 'waves' of feminism are not the drivers of anything - they are simply descriptions of different ways of looking at a philosophy, or of subtle shifts in perspective. People don't just wake up one day and think differently, and (unless they are slavish followers of the ideas of others) a group who think in one way in one decade are not going to all change their minds at the same time.

Of course people recognise different levels of oppression. Of course they can see that there are times that the needs of different groups overlap, and times when they are in conflict. Sometimes these people are also feminists. Sometimes they are also socialists. Or philanthropists. Or politicians. Or Trades Unionists. Or religious practitioners. Or combinations of the above. The ability to recognise oppression is not peculiar to feminists.

Dictionary definitions of who came when may be interesting for those who like to categorise things in that way, but they can also be reductive, and, as with many macro perspectives on life contain as many inaccuracies as truths. People don't fit so easily into boxes.

Just heard intersectional feminism explained in a French film called I Got Life, on BBC iPlayer. In addition to the explanation, it's a very good film about a woman going through the menopause.

GagaJo

Just heard intersectional feminism explained in a French film called I Got Life, on BBC iPlayer. In addition to the explanation, it's a very good film about a woman going through the menopause.

I'll look out for that. I am going to be busy with work all week, but if it's still on next week I'll definitely give it a watch, thanks.

the term feminist and even woman has become temporarily meaningless thanks to trans activists. Bottom line is that we ensure legally that people without penises have access to spaces where there are no people with penises. that simple. that important that fundamental.
There are three biological categories that are protected in law for safety fairness and opportunity: Age, Race, and Sex in alphabetical order. Only in Sex, the potentially dangerous category for women, have the boundaries been flouted in law.
If a middle aged white male author stated he was black and a minor, and entered literary prizes as a youth and black, would be laughed out of court. And yet if he declared he was a woman not a word of dissent would be allowed.
And as a woman whose sex class has been legally breached I have the obvious right to state this is absurd without being called a bigot.

for a deeply more exhaustive comment on all of the above, without a pay wall, read:
unherd.com/2022/03/the-fictional-world-of-trans-activism/

grannygranby

the term feminist and even woman has become temporarily meaningless thanks to trans activists. Bottom line is that we ensure legally that people without penises have access to spaces where there are no people with penises. that simple. that important that fundamental.
There are three biological categories that are protected in law for safety fairness and opportunity: Age, Race, and Sex in alphabetical order. Only in Sex, the potentially dangerous category for women, have the boundaries been flouted in law.
If a middle aged white male author stated he was black and a minor, and entered literary prizes as a youth and black, would be laughed out of court. And yet if he declared he was a woman not a word of dissent would be allowed.
And as a woman whose sex class has been legally breached I have the obvious right to state this is absurd without being called a bigot.

Can I just ask who is going to implement this law and how? Will women be required to prove they haven't a penis? especially if they are a bit butch? Will the inspection require a full frontal flash, or just a quick grope? (but then it might just be a rolled up sock!!!)

trisher

grannygranby

the term feminist and even woman has become temporarily meaningless thanks to trans activists. Bottom line is that we ensure legally that people without penises have access to spaces where there are no people with penises. that simple. that important that fundamental.
There are three biological categories that are protected in law for safety fairness and opportunity: Age, Race, and Sex in alphabetical order. Only in Sex, the potentially dangerous category for women, have the boundaries been flouted in law.
If a middle aged white male author stated he was black and a minor, and entered literary prizes as a youth and black, would be laughed out of court. And yet if he declared he was a woman not a word of dissent would be allowed.
And as a woman whose sex class has been legally breached I have the obvious right to state this is absurd without being called a bigot.

Can I just ask who is going to implement this law and how? Will women be required to prove they haven't a penis? especially if they are a bit butch? Will the inspection require a full frontal flash, or just a quick grope? (but then it might just be a rolled up sock!!!)

How do you reconcile this post trisher with your oft quoted stance of the law allows transwomen even with a GRC to be excluded from spaces if it's proportionate and would prevent women from using those spaces? If you don't think there is any way to enforce such laws why do you quote them as the safety measure that exists? What a shame that you consider transwomen can't be relied upon to behave in a law abiding, considerate way. Since more men are lawbreakers than women I suppose they're staying true to their sex, not their acquired gender.

Can I just ask who is going to implement this law and how? Will women be required to prove they haven't a penis? especially if they are a bit butch? Will the inspection require a full frontal flash, or just a quick grope? (but then it might just be a rolled up sock!!!)

This is always your argument, trisher.

Which other laws should we abandon because they are tricky to enforce?

As people have said over and over (and over), on the whole it doesn't matter, and we don't much care if someone trying to 'pass' as female is in the changing room or loo next door. Nobody has ever, in all the threads where you have asked this question, suggested that people need to prove their sex at the door of a changing room or lavatory.

Men with beards and penises prancing about and clearly getting satisfaction from the fact that there is nothing we can do about their presence because they have said the magic words 'I Am A Woman' are another matter, though. That should be stopped in the same way as it would be if a man who had not said the magic words were doing the same. That is a matter for Security.

Anyone using the cover of 'being a woman' to remove informed consent from female clients, patients or anything else should be disbarred from whatever their profession might be, and prosecuted. Women should have the right to give or withhold consent to being touched by, or to talk intimately to men, without being lied to. That is for HR and/or professional bodies to ensure.

Men using the 'I Am A Woman' mantra to compete in a female sex-class in sport should be disqualified and forbidden to take part in future. That is for sports associations to deal with.

It's really not difficult. There have been male and female spaces for many years, and on the whole they have not been abused until recently. On the rare occasions when they have been, and a man was entered a female space with nefarious intent, he has been dealt with in the way that is most appropriate to the circumstances in question.

And good point, Rosie!