the law as it stands on sex

In that case, I have no problem with 'gender neutral' as long as everyone remembers what their own sex is.
(Don't you mean they refuse to tell you their sex - as then you might have stereotyped gender expectations of them?)

FarNorth

In that case, I have no problem with 'gender neutral' as long as everyone remembers what their own sex is.
(Don't you mean they refuse to tell you their sex - as then you might have stereotyped gender expectations of them?)

Well yes, but it's gender as well because so many of our signals and language is gender-orientated. Like names for example. If you watched Pottery Throw Down AJ was gender neutral. I didn't realise until you saw their mother and she used the pronoun "they"

I didn't watch that but I've had a quick Google of AJ.
The point still is that AJ doesn't let on what their sex is so that you don't make gendered assumptions.
By not having a 'gendered' name, and by having an androgynous look, AJ conceals what their sex is.
Surely AJ would say that their gender is non-binary.

I wasn't sure about that FarNorth so I googled it only to discover there are a whole load of other things I didn't know about including "genderqueer" and "agender". Apparently there are 50 possible genders on Facebook. Well you live and learn. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

eazybee

Oh no!
Not another thread on this subject.

There's nothing else going on in the world, eazybee

I have no intention of trying to memorize the ludicrous number of labels some people now seem to like.

Not interested eazybee?
Just don't bother looking at the thread.

FarNorth

I have no intention of trying to memorize the ludicrous number of labels some people now seem to like.

I don’t suppose you’ve yet met the trans-bullies at an all girl’s school, who, whilst having no intention of doing anything which might harm their bodies e.g. hormones, binders or surgery, claim to be boys and demand that 11-12 year old classmates be made to use pronouns they make up ( zee, zip, spasm and sqirn for example) and change frequently.
Who then shriek transphobia and demand that pupils who misgender by not using them are punished!

Mollygo

FarNorth

I have no intention of trying to memorize the ludicrous number of labels some people now seem to like.

I don’t suppose you’ve yet met the trans-bullies at an all girl’s school, who, whilst having no intention of doing anything which might harm their bodies e.g. hormones, binders or surgery, claim to be boys and demand that 11-12 year old classmates be made to use pronouns they make up ( zee, zip, spasm and sqirn for example) and change frequently.
Who then shriek transphobia and demand that pupils who misgender by not using them are punished!

So no doubt these girls will become the wrong sort of women? Hasn't it been posted that feminists always support women? Or is it different with girls?
Anybody want to identify the school? There aren't that many girls' schools left.

Are you looking for a girls' only school? There are more than 230 girls' schools in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; you will see all girls' schools listed at the bottom of this page. hardly any at all.

Well Wiki lists about 200 in the UK. More I fully admit than I expected but there are quite a few that have disappeared.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_girls%27_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom#Former_girls'_schools_in_England

No comment about these girls/women I note. Do we support them or not? What would a real feminist do?

I think it was you who posted that feminists always support women, trisher. I was so surprised by the concept that I started a thread to question it. Of course, ‘it has been posted’ was immediately interpreted as meaning that it was a TAAT, and unsuccessful attempts were made to have it silenced/cancelled. Maybe the rules have changed since then, or is it just that your interpretation of them has shifted?

For the record, and as the thread in question was a while ago, my own belief is that the idea that women should always support the choices of other women is ridiculous. I think the vast majority of posters agreed. How would it work if we all had to support legalised murder (analogy alert!) simply because a homicidal woman believed in it? Would democracy hinge on the demographic balance between the sexes (presumably men would be bound by the same structures in your dystopian world?) or would gender be brought in to complicate things? Self-id would be really interesting if we had to support those whose gender choice aligned with our own on the day, wouldn’t it?

As for what to do about the girls - are they allowed to be called girls these days, incidentally? How about declaring the school a gender-free zone, or telling the parents that as it is indeed a school for girls, children of’other genders’ will only be accepted by exception, and a hefty surcharge will be added to their fees with immediate effect? I suspect that parental intervention would sort out the issue PDQ.

Trisher,

Which girls will become the wrong sort of women, the bullies or the bullied?

So no doubt these girls will become the wrong sort of women? Hasn't it been posted that feminists always support women? Or is it different with girls.
I doubt it. They’re evidently far to sensible to mess around with their bodies, but have just found a new way of bullying. They’ll probably grow up to be TRA!

Hasn't it been posted that feminists always support women? Or is it different with girls?

Haven't you been known to say that, trisher? Even going so far as to include men in your definition if they say they are women?

Some feminists do say it but it seems more sensible to treat women as actual people, not basing acceptance/rejection of their views or actions on the fact that the person is a woman.

I see all the demands for assorted pronouns as bullying, although I can accept 'they' at a push.
Those schoolgirls are certainly bullying.

I don't think it was me. But if anyone can post a quote I'm willing to withdraw that. It seems a bit incompatible to me to say I have posted "feminists always support women" and yet to have accused me of being mysoginistic, and to have said I always put men first. Really the logic and consistency on these threads makes me despair.

How can feminists always support women when women now means anything you want it to.
Feminists support females.

trisher

Well Wiki lists about 200 in the UK. More I fully admit than I expected but there are quite a few that have disappeared.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_girls%27_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom#Former_girls'_schools_in_England

That Wiki list doesn't include the all girls school my niece attends which is less than a mile from my house, and the all girls school built a few years ago just yards from my son's house so there will probably an unknown number of others missing. Those are both state comprehensive schools, checking a few names on that list they were either independent or selective.

Mollygo

How can feminists always support women when women now means anything you want it to.
Feminists support females.

So as these girls are females and you are a feminist Mollygo do you support them?

Thats choicey choice feminism. And not a game I want to play. I dont support womens choices because they are women. But I support all women even if they are company directors to have access to for example single sex spaces, access to abortion, adequate maternity care etc.

What I mean by choicey choice feminism is that saying women are free to choose whatever they want to do is of course true but it is in my view feminisms job to analyse the way society can influence those choices. So yes you can say for example it is a womans right to choose sex work but it is I think feminisms job to say why is that choice mostly made by women and in particularly mostly made be women who are disadvantaged in many ways.

Now you’re getting pathetic trisher, but if you want to try to score points, go ahead.
Supporting girls -as females, of course.
Even so far is trying to get psychiatric help for girls who claim to be boys.
But I don’t support bullies of either sex in their bullying.
Do you support bullies trisher?
Remember, these girls are claiming to be transboys and you support them.

It’s been recommended that trans should get psychiatric help and support before moving onto potentially irrevocable changes through drugs or surgery.

It's been posted numerous times on various threads that women are not supported by feminists in all they say and do because they are women, so why do you ask if anyone supports the bullies at this school trisher?

Can you explain what you mean by a real feminist?

Smileless2012

It's been posted numerous times on various threads that women are not supported by feminists in all they say and do because they are women, so why do you ask if anyone supports the bullies at this school trisher?

Can you explain what you mean by a real feminist?

I used the term "real feminist" sarcastically as I have been told so many times on these threads how mysoginistic I am and how I always put men first (entirely without justification of course) So obviously I'm not a real feminist!
I'm an intersectional feminist which means I recognise there are differences in the degrees of oppression women suffer and the privilege they experience. I would suspect these girls haven't been taught to recognise the degree of privilege they are being raised in but are being taught that winning is important and being top or in charge is best. It's sad because it's the sort of thinking which has held women back for centuries and to see it flourishing in a girls school where surely feminist principles should be taught is even sadder. There was a time when feminist thought said we needed to achieve like men and to succeed like men. Now a lot of us realise that system suits men most and a more inclusive and compassionate system is needed.