the law as it stands on sex

Madgran77

*I do think rape would be regarded as a more serious and assault by penetration doesn't sound as bad*

Shoving something inside another person's body whether it is a penis or any other suitably or unsuitably shaped instrument seems equally bad! If the first was considered more serious than the second then whoever is making that judgement isn't really fit for the job!!

Madgran77 I don't think I explained myself very well. I think there can actually be more physical damage by an implement and I would like to see the US definition adopted here. I think the term "assault by penetration" carries much less weight and has less emotive value than the term "rape"
Of course both should be treated equally but I do wonder if a jury would see a difference because "rape" is so much more widely used.

trisher

Madgran77

I do think rape would be regarded as a more serious and assault by penetration doesn't sound as bad

Shoving something inside another person's body whether it is a penis or any other suitably or unsuitably shaped instrument seems equally bad! If the first was considered more serious than the second then whoever is making that judgement isn't really fit for the job!!

Madgran77 I don't think I explained myself very well. I think there can actually be more physical damage by an implement and I would like to see the US definition adopted here. I think the term "assault by penetration" carries much less weight and has less emotive value than the term "rape"
Of course both should be treated equally but I do wonder if a jury would see a difference because "rape" is so much more widely used.

Ok trisher thanks for the explanation. I think your previous comments could potentially be read either way, clearly I misunderstood your point! Sorry!

I'm totally for more Germaine Greer. After she was constantly cancelled and heckled she quite reasonably got off the lecture circuit and said she was too old for that sh** And thank goodness for JKR. I suppose my main point is that you have to be very careful of what you allow to become law. I have no problem with people being as gender fluid as they like. That is a good thing away from stupid gender stereotypes which have got so extreme. Especially now drag can show us how much better men are at it. Basically, people without penises have to be protected in law from people with them. And we must safeguard this. I believe Denmark just has, it states in law there are two sexes but you can be what gender you like but don't mix the two and bring laws on gender in to replace laws on sex.

Totally agree grannygranby

Here we go again.

To have rape combined with assault by penetration would require clarification on how this would be honestly and accurately reported.

There are some important ifs that need to be put in place to avoid the recording of male rape by TW as a female crime or female rape by a TM as a male crime and thus skewing crime figures to give a dishonest result.
SO
If reporting and recording specified the perpetrator of the act to be a male or a female, with the addition of gender if so required . . .
Together with
If the rape was specified as carried out by a male including a TW who is biologically male, using a penis or an identified body part or an implement (defined)
Or
carried out by a female including a TM who is biologically female, using an implement or an identified body part.

To simplify what I’m saying,
stating the rapist is male or female would avoid the need for the word penis at all and avoid the wrongful assignment of a male crime to female crime statistics and vice versa.
But would everyone who wants rape to include penis and implement agree to this?
I suspect not.

Chewbacca

^In law, rape can be committed without a penis.^ Wrong.

GG13 Germaine Greer has nailed it. Perhaps those who disagree are the same ones who go to a pantomime and think that the 2 men in a costume is a real horse on stage.

Love it. And it’s true!

Just to be clear, in my earlier comments I was not specifically advocating for rape to include penis and implement.

I just think that whatever the crime is called inserting anything into another person's body without their permission is equally appalling and should be equally punishable!

Madgran77

Just to be clear, in my earlier comments I was not specifically advocating for rape to include penis and implement.

I just think that whatever the crime is called inserting anything into another person's body without their permission is equally appalling and should be equally punishable!

Equally punishable! Absolutely!

...and viewed as equally punishable by those making the decisions!

But I do think that trisher might be right that one may more "emotive" than the other, thus influencing decisions!

Without fogging the definition between rape by penis and assault by penetration by object, to my mind the difference, essential difference is that the penis is used in love making, is an act of tenderness and love, and that to me is what makes rape so awful, an act which most associate with love by a partner is tainted by violence.

All this aside, and without rehashing all the points which have been made (sometimes eloquently, sometimes vociferously) on previous threads; Germaine Greer is entitled to be listened to, is entitled to her opinion, and should not be dismissed just because what she says does not suit some people. Personally I find her refreshingly honest

Madgran77

*I do think rape would be regarded as a more serious and assault by penetration doesn't sound as bad*

Shoving something inside another person's body whether it is a penis or any other suitably or unsuitably shaped instrument seems equally bad! If the first was considered more serious than the second then whoever is making that judgement isn't really fit for the job!!

I agree with this. Even abusive men without erectile dysfunction have raped women and men in this way.

The law needs to change. Because forcefully doing this is the same intent as rape, the intent is to violate them

Should the law stipulate that no-one can identify as a woman with an intact pension?

Surely those born male who sincerely wish to be female would want their penis amputated as a step towards their goal.

Equally punishable, but separately recorded.

Rape is a crime of male power and misogyny, as, I'm sure is penetration with an object. There is a difference, though (rape can cause pregnancy and infect people with STIs and viruses such as AIDS, for instance), and criminologists need to know the difference in the figures and the motivation. I think it would be highly distasteful for any of us to even start wondering which is worse.

I'm not sure of the motivation for women sexually assaulting other women. Clearly it comes from a very dark place, but it is, fortunately, rare, and conflating it with rape is never going to be helpful. Recording it as a separate crime will allow research to be more meaningful.

Those who want to see the crimes lumped together - what would be the point, do you think?

Should the law stipulate that no-one can identify as a woman with an intact pension?

It's always been more difficult for women than men to build up a pension, but this would be a step too far, surely? ?

It's always been more difficult for women than men to build up a pension, but this would be a step too far, surely. I’ve suffered from the dangers of AutoCorrect but this one really made me laugh!

A couple of paragraphs with Germaine's perspective on rape

Greer – who was raped herself aged 18 and did not report it to the police – believes many cases of rape are in fact just “bad sex”. Stating that “most rapes don’t involve any injury whatsoever", Greer said that rape isn't a “spectacularly violent crime”, but just “lazy, careless and insensitive" instead. “Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal rights he is raping her. It will never end up in a court of law," she added.

She also questioned a statistic that suggested 70% of rape victims suffer post-traumatic stress disorder, compared with 20% of conflict veterans: “What the hell are you saying? Something that leaves no sign, no injury, no nothing is more damaging to a woman than seeing your best friend blown up by an IED is to a veteran?”

sheerluxe.com/culture/can-germaine-greer-still-be-called-feminist

Surely those born male who sincerely wish to be female would want their penis amputated as a step towards their goal.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

Well if it was made a compulsory part of being a ‘woman2004 version’, then I’m certain there would be fewer men desiring to change. Or maybe they’d just settle for being called transwomen.

Maybe we’d have would-be a woman clinics staffed by Lorena Bobbit! ??

Oh I know. Don’t say it. I have been warned!

I thought that stuff about rape being commonplace was spot on, I think a lot of women knew exactly what she was saying. I was driving when I heard her talk about rape and I had to stop the car. Many many women will have experienced rape or assault without violence. Many will tie themselves in knots trying to process a banal event which was actually assault.

I've read that Lia Thomas, the trans swimmer, enjoys parading around the changing room naked, much to the discomfort of the other competitors. It occured to me that if a non trans male entered a women's changing room naked he would be charged with indecent exposure, are there different laws for this?

dolphindaisy There are no different laws for this although some have been acting as if there are.
It's a female penis so no probs, is their stance.

There is an ongoing attempt to challenge this, in the case of Thomas.

womensdeclarationusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/WDI-KPSS-UPenn-letter-2-1-2022.pdf

Germaine Greer is entitled to be listened to, is entitled to her opinion, and should not be dismissed just because what she says does not suit some people.

Exactly!

And if you read Germaine Greer's stuff, REALLY analyse what she is saying rather than respond emotionally without thinking through the deeper issues that she is so often drawing out for consideration, then it is possible to see the absolute sense in what she says ...she usually highlights that things are just not as simple or as simplistic as they might be presented. That applies to the quotes about her comments on rape above!

When it comes to rape, whoever the persons involved, it's the issue of consent or not which is the most difficult to prove in law.

Thank you FarNorth that makes very interesting (and disturbing) reading

Thank you for that FarNorth. It does make disturbing reading and the idea that ‘some teammates were afraid to speak out’ makes Lia’s actions and the disregard of the University much worse.