the law as it stands on sex

Disturbing reading Farnorth. The rights of one person, it seems, overrides the rights of the majority. What of parents of girls, parents of Muslim girls for example? What of their rights?

GillT57

Disturbing reading Farnorth. The rights of one person, it seems, overrides the rights of the majority. What of parents of girls, parents of Muslim girls for example? What of their rights?

They have no rights. Lia Thomas is a sacred caste. Lia Thomas's feelings trump anybody's. Lia Thomas is the most important person at Penn University. Ring any bells re other sacred castes who couldn't be challenged, questioned etc.?When Lia Thomas eventually emerges into the real world, Lia Thomas will have a rude awakening.

It’s just possible, with all the figures gained by cheating, reflecting badly on the university, that Liar Thomas’s awakening may come sooner rather than later.
Cheating a few female Olympians out of the medals they deserve might get brushed under the carpet, but cheating whole universities out of their glory could just tip the balance.
In which case I will celebrate Mr Thomas’ contribution to restoring fairness.

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

Greer’s ‘cocker spaniel’ quote is originally from 2015, seven years ago; so it’s not as if she is late to the party and ‘trying to stay relevant’, as you say.

Greer doesn’t have to ‘try’ to be anything. ♥️

Agree. Greer is and always has been her own woman and not a trend follower.

The law and sex have been manipulated in many ways, not least by using sex and gender interchangeably. Defining words is crucial so that we are all talking about the same thing.

It is clear that many politicians, for whatever reason, are unable to define the word “woman”. I wonder therefore, are they able to define the word trans. This seems to be as problematic as defining woman.
Stonewall include all manner of identities and interests under the umbrella term trans
“Trans
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, cross-dresser, genderless, agender, non gender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.”

(https://www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/list-lgbtq-terms )

Its interesting that the term “cross-dresser” comes under the definition. It would certainly describe a person such as Eddy Izard. Can a person be in girl mode one day and boy mode the next and still be trans? If that person, Eddy, enters a women's loo in boy clothes in order to change into girl clothes, what might any female present make of this. If the only evidence of his trans identity is in the carrier bag in his hand, is he trans or is it a costume?

Greer doesn’t have to ‘try’ to be anything

Agreed!

Madgran77

*Greer doesn’t have to ‘try’ to be anything*

Agreed!

Definitely Agreed!

It seems like the humans who want to be women, whatever that is, but who are keen to hang on to their spare body parts regardless, want the cake and the ha'penny.

She's excusing rape. However you sugar the pill, if she were a man saying that, all the GN posters would be up in arms.

But whatever suits your argument. As long as she's anti trans, she can say whatever she likes about anything else and be excused.

And why do some Trans people demand respect for themselves and their feelings when they clearly have no respect for the same for others' and are quite sanguine about carrying on following their own agenda?
Respect should be mutual.
All seems a bit one sided to me

Nannee49

And why do some Trans people demand respect for themselves and their feelings when they clearly have no respect for the same for others' and are quite sanguine about carrying on following their own agenda?
Respect should be mutual.
All seems a bit one sided to me

Ooh Nannee49, You’re right, but however right you are, you run the risk of being *****.

petunia

The law and sex have been manipulated in many ways, not least by using sex and gender interchangeably. Defining words is crucial so that we are all talking about the same thing.

It is clear that many politicians, for whatever reason, are unable to define the word “woman”. I wonder therefore, are they able to define the word trans. This seems to be as problematic as defining woman.
Stonewall include all manner of identities and interests under the umbrella term trans
“Trans
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, cross-dresser, genderless, agender, non gender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.”

(https://www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/list-lgbtq-terms )

Its interesting that the term “cross-dresser” comes under the definition. It would certainly describe a person such as Eddy Izard. Can a person be in girl mode one day and boy mode the next and still be trans? If that person, Eddy, enters a women's loo in boy clothes in order to change into girl clothes, what might any female present make of this. If the only evidence of his trans identity is in the carrier bag in his hand, is he trans or is it a costume?

I think Eddie Izzard is interesting because he openly admits to struggling with his assigned gender roles. He was originally a transvestite in that he wore women's clothes- probably the first man to do so seriously on TV. He has tried to explain his preferences and in later life described himself as being in "girl mode".
There is no doubt that if he used a men's toilet in some places he would have been attacked. I think he now sometimes uses the pronoun she but has said it doesn't matter.
I think she would probably agree that it is confusing but a little consideration and kindness always helps.

Eddy may appreciate a bit of consideration and kindness Trisher, but its a one way street. We show kindness and consideration to him, he shows disrespect and entitlement to the bunch of teenage girls who, to their credit, booted him out of the loo. And if he finds it confusing, why would we have to dance around and get it right. Why is it a woman's responsibility to accommodate the multifarious whims of someone who isn't sure themselves of what is going on.

As I've said on previous posts Mollygo, I really could not give a FF about anyone's life choices. Each to their own. But, to chuck in another amorphism, do as you would be done by.

Izzard changes their mind all the time.
Not so long ago he was banging on about being a ‘male lesbian’.
He has also said ‘they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes’.
It’s ludicrous that they now want to be called she.

Izzard is deeply emotionally and psychologically damaged due to the early death of his mother.

That’s their issue; not what they decide to be they want to be every other week.

Yes Petunia
Why is it a woman's responsibility to accommodate the multifarious whims of someone who isn't sure themselves of what is going on?
trisher, after reading your lengthy post, can you explain to me what exactly Jamie Wallis is saying?
When he says he wants to be trans, does he mean transwoman or does he mean homosexual?
Actually, I’m not just asking trisher, I’m asking if anyone can tell me what trans means to Jamie Wallis.

Jamie Wallis means that s/he wants to be not 100% a man. Beyond that, s/he hasn't explained. S/he could want to competely transition or maybe exist somewhere between the 2. Different for everyone.

Poor sod. It sounds miserable, having to have kept that undercover. Although coming out must have been terrifying, bet s/he feels better for it

I think that this discussion of Eddie Izzard is interesting. If we are being firmly told that 'transwomen are women' yet we're then told that the term 'trans' seems to encompass individuals who don't seem to be able to make up their minds whether they are women or not how are we supposed to unquestioningly accept the first statement 'transwomen are women' when some of them don't seem to be too sure of it themselves?

I've just seen what I consider to be a rather bizarre tweet which relates to the minor furore over men being asked if they are pregnant before having a scan.

Tweet
Daniel Mason ❤️@Gisleburt

In case you were wondering, some Transphobes (at least 3664) would rather kill unborn babies than give the slightest bit of ground.

Bring this up the next time someone argues that their side is protecting people.

The figure of 3664 relates to the number of 'likes' for a tweet stating that the world has gone mad because men are asked if they're pregnant before a scan.

I can see that Mason is referring to the possibility that a transman about to have a scan might be pregnant, but I would ask why would they be pregnant?

I thought that becoming a transman involved completely rejecting the female sex you were born with; being utterly positive that you were actually a man. So why become that uniquely female thing, pregnant which can only happen by having vaginal sex with another man? (Apart, of course as a result of rape, in which case wouldn't a transman abort the foetus?)

I find this very confusing...

Trans means moving between. For some, that is a move from one side, to another. For others, trans can be gender neutral.

Just in the same way, cis people express their gender differently. so do trans people. We all only get one life. We need to be free to live it how we want.

I read an article (can't find it now) about a transman with a transwoman partner. They wanted a family. Obviously, transwoman couldn't get pregnant. So the transman did. From what I can remember, he found the feminisation of his body during pregnancy very difficult.

I never knew that trans could mean gender neutral!

I would imagine living our one life, free to live it how we want is exactly what persons, whos' well documented wishes not to be made to feel uncomfortable in any space, can only dream about.

I think most of us want all people to live the lives they wish Gaga. Even if that life is out of the ordinary.
The real danger comes from individuals who's behaviour causes damage to others. Currently in the news its the transwomen swimmers, cyclists, etc. who are in the spotlight. Lia may be living their best life but the fallout is being experienced by the females on the team.

thanks for that GagaJo.

TBH, I found both tweets absurd. It's a non issue being dragged into the equally absurd 'war on woke'. One tweeter pointed out that it's a standard question on a generic form used for all sexes before a scan. Which seems fine to me.

Did I object to being asked if I were pregnant before having an Xray in my late 60s? Of course not because it is just, remotely, possible that someone 'might' be... The scan question seems to me to be out of the same stable...

But I am a bit concerned about the Izzard position and the Stonewall definition. I'm perfectly happy to accept trans people being whatever they think they are, but not happy about people dipping in and out of their gender choices.

However, I'll leave it there.

FannyCornforth

I never knew that trans could mean gender neutral!

A good few years ago, transgender meant someone existing between the genders. That meaning has changed now though. I'm talking at least 20 years ago.