the law as it stands on sex

Mollygo I don't know if you are incapable of readng what I actually say due to your own passion on this subject or not

However I've said the same things from the beginning

It is solely up to you if you want to understand me or if you want to focus continually on looking for reasons I am some sort of enemy to women in general.

I don't identify with the labels you assign to me though and will ontinue to point that out

I do care a great deal, feminism matters to me, I have 5 children both boys and girls and I have high expectations of the respect they give and receive as they move through the world.

To say otherwise is to deny who I am completely.

If I can hear you, and understand you, why can't you do the same?

There is talk, here and elsewhere, of the self-effacing trans people who are being harmed by the current demands from transactivists.
However, reading the book "Trans Britain - Our Journey from the Shadows", with chapters from many trans people and some supporters, it is clear that self-identification of sex has been wanted for a long time by at least some of them.
They have not all been quietly blending in and hoping for nothing more.

GrannyGravy13

I will just leave this here…

I always think if you have to resort to posting things that go on in the US you are truly losing the battle. In 2020 44 transgender people were murdered in the US, in 2021 it was over 57 www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2021
These figures show the real consequences of transgender hatred.

VS
I can only respect those needs and say, "you can come and sit next to me and I will treat you like a woman".

That's fine in many situations, but not all.

As you said, fair treatment involves being aware of differences and taking them into account where they are relevant.
That can't happen if we are all supposed to pretend that certain differences don't exist.

V confused trisher.
Are you losing the battle, with your post about the US?

Btw, Karen White and Katie Dolatowski are both in the UK.

FarNorth

You don't have to.

But you can be open minded to the evidence

The evidence is that from as young as they can remember many people are suffering gender dysphoria.

Do you remember when people who were left handed were discriminated against? People were saying, humans have dominant right hands, people were forced to write with them. The idea that peoples brains might actually be different from a typical norm was laughed at. The idea that we could create resources to help people use their own dominant hand, ie left, was ridiculed as unnessesary and they just needed to change to suit the majority.

Brains are complex structures we still know very little about now.

I see the evidence that people have dysphoria and their whole lives revolve around a need to be in a different body and that is evidence. The onus is on science to reveal the cause and I think it will in time.

That seems logical to me...

If others do not agree that doesn't make me wrong, there is no right or wrong yet... Nothing has been proven

trisher you cannot deny that there are men who are using trans status to harm women and children.

FarNorth

Btw, Karen White and Katie Dolatowski are both in the UK.

So 3 instances of abuse in the US and 2 in the UK. No comments about the number of transgender people murdered in the US. No comments about the violence transgender people are subjected to there? No questions about why it is necessary to add UK and US assaults by transwomen together? Because perhaps it is a very rare occurrence.
Do murdered transpeople really not matter?

I've also seen trans women laughed at, not saying here as can't remember where I read it, for experiencing "menstrual cramps".

A I wouldn't laugh at someone with gender dysphoria for that.

B there could be so many reasons why that is happening.

Why does someone with an amputated limb still feel it at times?

Why do people with conditions like fibromyalgia endure phantom pain?

Why do people with things like long covid experience breathing difficulties when their lungs appear fully recovered?

Why do some women experience phantom pregnancies to the point their bodies exhibit physical changes in line with pregnancy?

What effect does having your body changed with hormones do to your nervous system?

Or even, what does gender dysphoria do to your mental health?

So many interesting questions that aren't funny really are they?

GrannyGravy13

trisher you cannot deny that there are men who are using trans status to harm women and children.

I haven't denied that. I have pointed out that trans status is still a difficult and dangerous path to take, particularly in the US. I could say that by perpetually dwelling on the very few cases identified as trans offences you are stirring up, and adding to, the hatred that results in transpeople being murdered .
I do wonder why is it acceptable to identify and villify the few trans women who offend? There are hundreds of more men who are paedophiles why not go after them? Isn't it because we recognise that vigilante behaviour isn't acceptable and sometimes results in the innocent suffering? So why is it OK to pursue transwomen?

FarNorth

VS
I can only respect those needs and say, "you can come and sit next to me and I will treat you like a woman".

That's fine in many situations, but not all.

As you said, fair treatment involves being aware of differences and taking them into account where they are relevant.
That can't happen if we are all supposed to pretend that certain differences don't exist.

Thanks FarNorth, you make the point far more clearly than I did.

That is part of the reason why I strongly believe we all need to come together on this trisher

Women are powerful together. We can stop discrimination against our own (women and trans women)

That's the fight.

Stand together, strong, teach each other how to stay safe, help each other out of toxic relationships, don't stand by when we see women abused in public.

Basically teach men that we have boundaries and they need to respect them or either be alone or incarcerated

Yes there is a big difference in the response you get, and how a discussion flows when you treat others respectfully isn't there?

I agree with your last paragraph VioletSky it’s a shame that those men IDing as trans do not.

GrannyGravy13

I agree with your last paragraph VioletSky it’s a shame that those men IDing as trans do not.

I advicate for trans people

I do not protect abusive men

That's the difference isn't it

That's the difference that trans people and their allies need acknowledged in discussions because if people don't, that's not honest and it's certainly not progressive

Besides there are plenty of men these days who do respect those boundaries and I look at my AC friend circles with awe at how different they are sometimes

Rightly or wrongly I thank feminism for that

So why is it OK to pursue transwomen?

So why is it OK for TRA not to do something about the damage some of these transwomen are doing to the trans cause?

So why is it not OK to mention that some transwomen (men) are using trans status to harm women and children?

Do you think if it isn’t mentioned, they will go away?
Publicity for cheats like Liar Thomas has gone a long way towards making people aware of what is happening to women because of some men’s choices.

Do I think it’s right to ‘pursue all transwomen’? No.
Do I think more of the TRA and supporters of trans should do more and say more to acknowledge the harm and the wrongs being carried out in the name of trans instead of blanket protecting trans?
Yes!
Does it look like that’s going to happen any time soon?
I’d love to see evidence of that.

I always think if you have to resort to posting things that go on in the US you are truly losing the battle. In 2020 44 transgender people were murdered in the US, in 2021 it was over 57 www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-community-in-2021
These figures show the real consequences of transgender hatred.

I'm still confused as to whether posting about the US means you are losing the battle or not trisher.

We are constantly told to look to other countries where trans ideology is proceeding with no problem at all.
Yet when we look, and see problems, they are to be dismissed?

Check out www.womenarehuman.com You'll find many more instances of violence from men claiming to be transwomen.
Do you really still think "Believe every man who tells you he is a woman" is a good idea?

Mollygo that evidence is everywhere but if you aren't moving in circles that include trans people and their allies that are inclusive and friendly, you aren't likely to see it.

No one has said it is wrong to point out issues, issues are issues.

The problem is when you say the only resolution to those issues is to deny that trans women are women. That's not the only resolution and it's not best for everyone.

For some trans people there is a family, a circle of friends, work colleagues and other allies, who do want acceptance for them. They are being harmed too.

For some trans people there is a family that denies them, that abuses them, that directly harms them and I don't agree with anything that empowers that.

Personally I don't feel the need for trans people to apologise for the actions of abusive men though. That would be like me apologising for the actions of abusive men. I'm neither abusive nor a man.

If I as a mother had raised abusive men, I'd be apologising but that is not the same.

I strongly dislike abusive people. I strongly dislike abusive behaviours. In anyone. I have estranged abusive family members. I will talk against abusive people with passion and there are those who will argue with me about what constitutes abuse without acknowledging the behaviours they do in fact agree with..

You just have to really listen to people to see the real truth and sometimes that will depend on your own circles if you allow it

You just have to really listen to people to see the real truth and sometimes that will depend on your own circles if you allow it.
I do agree. But your ‘real truth’ is the truth as perceived by you and that doesn’t make it any more real truth than my real truth.

Hmmmm

Now how long will this go on before I get warned I wonder?

All the transwomen I know are very clear they are not women. I presume their views dont count.

Mollygo

You just have to really listen to people to see the real truth and sometimes that will depend on your own circles if you allow it.
I do agree. But your ‘real truth’ is the truth as perceived by you and that doesn’t make it any more real truth than my real truth.

Hmmmm

Now how long will this go on before I get warned I wonder?

Why dont you just explain what "being warned" means for the group of us participating in this discussion?

Galaxy they'll be the wrong sort of transwomen, just like Debbie Hayton who is abused and insulted for knowing her science.

I absolutely accept that a trans woman doesn't have to identify as a woman and can hold that distinction. I would respect that completely should I meet them