the law as it stands on sex

Are you drunk, VS?

Do you mean like all the lesbians currently campaigning for single sex spaces. Or do those lesbians not count. I was roaring with laughter at the twitter frenzy about the lunch with bindel, jkr etc, some of the comments were but but they are gender non conforming. Imagine butch lesbians fighting for single sex spaces. Shocking for some people.

Galaxy One reason I admire JKR is she could so easily have just gone on living her “ordinary” life and never have spoken out on these issues. I know lots of people think with her money, it’s water off a duck’s back, etc. but how could she not be emotionally hurting from the comments/behaviour of Emma W., Daniel R. and Rupert G. She met them as children, watched them reach adulthood and if not for her, would any of the three have ever been as well known or indeed as wealthy as they are? Highly doubtful imo.
Let alone the thousands of vile words and actions from the TRAs.

I think the experiences in her life have probably made her very resilient and obviously its hard to tell from social media but it looks as if those women are a good support network.

Nick Robinson interviewed Rhys McKinnon/Rachael McKinnon/Veronica Ivy on the Today programme last week to ask him/her about their views of trans women competing in women's sports. It was a brilliant interview! Nick Robinson was incisive and asked the very pertinent question "If there is no permanent advantage to people who are born male who goes through puberty why do we have separate sports categories?" McKinnon/Ivy just couldn't give a coherent answer and attempted to switch it back to another question. Nick wasn't to be deflected however and replied "I ask the questions and you give the answers if you wouldn't mind. There are many people who think it is related to this issue. We do have separate categories for men and women and we do it because they have different bodies.

What we're talking about is fairness. The international cycling governing body UCI says it's their duty to guarantee fair and meaningful competition.
Clearly there's two meanings of fairness on the fairness of right and fairness on people who have trained all of their lives to compete face unfair competition from someone who has a "male body".

You can listen to the whole gloriously wonderful Nick Robinson on BBC Sounds catch up.

Galaxy India Willoughby (a transwoman) was hilarious, even more ridiculous than usual. Re. the photos of JKR and the older lesbian (whose name I do know but can’t remember), she couldn’t understand why her (IW’s) presence would “traumatise the company” but not the lesbians (who self describes herself as “butch”). Lots of comments about how the majority of the TRAs posts were about how the GC women looked and what they were wearing.

Start a thread on butch lesbians being a minority VS. You might find yourself with unexpected support, even for the butch lesbians (who you seem to assume wrongly), that we wouldn’t support.
We don’t even reject the famous tall, strong, muscular, deep-voiced women beloved of one poster.

We are certainly concerned about the expectation by some TW that lesbians, butch or otherwise are fair game for sexual encounters, just because a male says he is a woman. Aren’t you?

On here the majority of posts are about the damage done by a few TW who are:
-determined to usurp women’s rights,
-deny women places safe from males when they need them without having to come face to face with a male when they are already distressed.
-determined to win by cheating etc. etc.
element

Is anyone ever going to acknowledge the women also being caught in the cross fire or don't they matter?

That sentence makes no sense? Why would you read any of these posts and think only you are concerned about women also being caught in the crossfire ?

What’s a masculine presenting woman? The companion of a man in a dress?

We need a lot more Neil Robinsons, I’ll listen later.

If you fail to understand that any legislation about this, or indeed any of the outrage expressed on social media, is liable to impact not only on the lives of transwomen but on the life of any woman who dares to look just the slightest bit masculine than you really haven't thought it through. I'm very conscious that in my lifetime women only won the right to dress as they wish when I was an adult. That restrictions on what you wore and how you dressed existed well into the 1970s and 80s. I've no desire to see women inspected to see if they look feminine enough, female enough or any other term you might use for the sort of appearance that would prove someone wasn't a transwoman. Does anyone really imagine these views only impact on transwomen and not on all of us?

Doodledog

Are you drunk, VS?

Why would you say that?

Exactly trisher

Wrong sort of women perhaps

At the forefront of the fight for single sex spaces as I mentioned. Thank god.

The only wrong sort of women are the ones with a penis and balls.

I know the bizarre example of the male offender who strangled a fellow prisoner first ID'd as a woman and is now ID-ing as a baby is beyond belief for the toleration. No. or he should be in Broadmoor. and I agree there are three categories of law for identity and fairness in place: age; sex; and race. why is sex up for grabs? ludicrous.

Chewbacca

The only wrong sort of women are the ones with a penis and balls.

True. You can tell we’re doing well, we’ve got another deviation trying to creep in.

We keep being told that gender doesnt exist and women should be able to present the way they choose yet... It is anti trans rhetoric leading to women being attacked and insulted in toilets and its happening everywhere

Due to hysteria

Trans people were always in the toilets

That's a riddle I can't logic my way out of.

It's definitely not ok

But no responsibility is taken for how these discussions are had and the language that is used.

People use their very public platforms to announce their extremely inexpert views to a fan base without care for who is listening.

The media whips up a frenzy over generic medical forms

A company decides to change a slogan and everyone loses their minds

People are in very real danger because of it on both sides because of the polarisation of views and no one is allowed the middle ground but again, their inexpert opinions being shouted from the rooftops matters more?

What right do they have to an amplified voice anyway? If everyone's favourite actor says the world is flat are we all going to look for the edge?

People who have harmed no one, said nothing, stayed quiet, lived in peace... Caught in the crossfire but people's inexpert opinions matter more than that do they?

And people like me told we are the enemy and being literally demonised right in front of everyone for what? Looking for a way to mediate? No one wants a peaceful resolution? No one wants everyone safe and happy?

What's the alternative? trisher asks and asks but none is given.

It's sad, it really is.

Alternative to what?

Who’s demonising you?
You give your opinion, we give ours.

Are you demonising us?
Such melodrama!

And, I’m offering support here, I agree about your inexpert opinions.

For those who worry about the butch lesbians being in a minority Perhaps you might want to cast a thought to this lesbian who, it would appear is "the wrong sort of lesbian":

Dr Shereen Benjamin said that she was viewed as “the wrong sort of lesbian” after MSPs and pro-trans rights lobbyists unanimously decided to refuse her membership of a Scottish Parliament forum, which she said she had wanted to join to find common ground with opponents .

Last December, she applied to join the Scottish Parliament’s cross-party LGBTI + group as a representative of For Women Scotland, one of the most prominent grassroots campaign groups, which opposes SNP plans to overhaul the Gender Recognition Act.

However, her application was rejected by existing members, which include MSPs and several representatives of taxpayer-funded lobby groups backing controversial reforms.

At the previous meeting of the group, set up in 2016 to “promote and discuss issues of importance to the LGBTI + community in Scotland”, members had backed the idea of ​​hearing from more “women’s sector” groups.

“We made it clear our request was in good faith, and that we wanted to contribute to finding resolutions that will protect everyone,” said Dr Benjamin, a University of Edinburgh lecturer and former school teacher.

“It seems the only lesbians the Scottish Parliament wants to work with are those who deny the materiality of sex. As same-sex attracted women, it appears that we’re the ‘wrong sort of lesbians’ and can be excluded from the political process, with no reason given.”

And people like me told we are the enemy and being literally demonised right in front of everyone for what? Oh give over!

VS Ever thought that it's all this trans rights aggression and demands for access to every female space, changing of the language women have always used to describe themselves, infiltration into sports, jobs and a host of other things that has caused all the fuss? That you can't say only females/women have a cervix or vagina? You say transwomen were always in toilets and historically they weren't assaulted or questioned. Butch lesbians and tall women with deep voices weren't assaulted or questioned either. If these groups are finding they are subject to objections now it will be because with the "suck my girl dick" or "die in a grease fire" type of remarks of the worst TRAs many women will feel threatened and unsafe. That's really sad.

What's the alternative? trisher asks and asks but none is given.
Well trisher just keeps telling us that anything we suggest is unworkable and transwomen will go where they wish when they wish and there's not a thing we can do to stop it, and that's tough luck. Maybe you can come up with some solutions to allow females some female only spaces, or are you like trisher who has shown that she's not actually interested in women's sex based rights being enforced at all?

VS a question to you. If I request a female doctor to do a required internal examination on me, do you think it is right for an undisclosed transwoman to present and do the examination. I call that dishonest and deceitful, and totally disrespectful of my dignity and informed consent. What do you think?

When I got my first pair of jeans, way before trousers were accepted women's wear, my mother wouldn't buy me ones with a fly front, lady's jeans had a side zip. My mother told me that if I wore the fly front ones I would be arrested for wearing men's clothes. I don't know if that was true or not, she certainly believed it. I have no desire to see my GD subjected to restrictions about her clothes because there are vigilante groups out looking for transwomen or anyone who looks a bit butch.

Rosie51

VS Ever thought that it's all this trans rights aggression and demands for access to every female space, changing of the language women have always used to describe themselves, infiltration into sports, jobs and a host of other things that has caused all the fuss? That you can't say only females/women have a cervix or vagina? You say transwomen were always in toilets and historically they weren't assaulted or questioned. Butch lesbians and tall women with deep voices weren't assaulted or questioned either. If these groups are finding they are subject to objections now it will be because with the "suck my girl dick" or "die in a grease fire" type of remarks of the worst TRAs many women will feel threatened and unsafe. That's really sad.

What's the alternative? trisher asks and asks but none is given.
Well trisher just keeps telling us that anything we suggest is unworkable and transwomen will go where they wish when they wish and there's not a thing we can do to stop it, and that's tough luck. Maybe you can come up with some solutions to allow females some female only spaces, or are you like trisher who has shown that she's not actually interested in women's sex based rights being enforced at all?

VS a question to you. If I request a female doctor to do a required internal examination on me, do you think it is right for an undisclosed transwoman to present and do the examination. I call that dishonest and deceitful, and totally disrespectful of my dignity and informed consent. What do you think?

Thanks Rosie 51.
Exactly that.
Chewbacca - that’s shameful. How can a same-sex attracted lesbian be the wrong sort? If lesbians aren’t same-sex attracted, they would be hetero-sexual.

Rosie51

VS Ever thought that it's all this trans rights aggression and demands for access to every female space, changing of the language women have always used to describe themselves, infiltration into sports, jobs and a host of other things that has caused all the fuss? That you can't say only females/women have a cervix or vagina? You say transwomen were always in toilets and historically they weren't assaulted or questioned. Butch lesbians and tall women with deep voices weren't assaulted or questioned either. If these groups are finding they are subject to objections now it will be because with the "suck my girl dick" or "die in a grease fire" type of remarks of the worst TRAs many women will feel threatened and unsafe. That's really sad.

What's the alternative? trisher asks and asks but none is given.
Well trisher just keeps telling us that anything we suggest is unworkable and transwomen will go where they wish when they wish and there's not a thing we can do to stop it, and that's tough luck. Maybe you can come up with some solutions to allow females some female only spaces, or are you like trisher who has shown that she's not actually interested in women's sex based rights being enforced at all?

VS a question to you. If I request a female doctor to do a required internal examination on me, do you think it is right for an undisclosed transwoman to present and do the examination. I call that dishonest and deceitful, and totally disrespectful of my dignity and informed consent. What do you think?

Rosie51 I have quoted the law interminably. The fact that you choose not to listen isn't my fault. The fact that you choose to translate my posts as you do isn't my fault.
The law is clear. Female only spaces are protected by law and any transwoman, with a GRC certificate or without,, with or without surgery, can be excluded if it is felt their presence would stop women attending.
I find that a simple and easily applicable solution. I don't want to change it. Female spaces are protected under law.

Yes that was crass trisher and desperate to say the least. There are a lot of "dead herrings" as Baldrick in 'Black Adder' would say, being tossed around which is a shame when there are those wanting an intelligent and respectful debate.

Not all women who have been sexually abused are afraid of penises but for those who are, who can blame them.

No one is talking about anyone being "subjected to restrictions about (their) clothes" trisher. For goodness sake, are you actually reading what's being posted here?