the law as it stands on sex

Except that's not true Mollygo

The issues exist at either end of polarised views.

There is a middle ground

If we are OK with just adding a few words that that enable everyone to get their needs met...

If you are OK with allowing trans people access to shared areas they have historically always been...

If you understand that the law is still protecting the vulnerable and still actually protects you

If you can see an issue and engage with that issue without it causing fear and hatred of the many many people, some of which are cis women, getting accidentally caught in the crossfire.

We can shout down any and all violence, verbal and physical

Because none of it is ok.

Gender stereotypes have always been such a bore. We thought we had broken through in the eighties when all women seemed to wear doc martens shoes in which you could run away in, as Germaine G kind of said. To see stilettos come back in fashion so that women in the corporate world had to wear them as part of their contract of employment was chilling.
I have always found drag distasteful as it parodies the extremes of femininity and is so competitive with it. It used to be comedy. Gives me a shudder. Women still have a long way to go, we are still vulnerable to males in the private and public sphere and we have to have laws to protect the most vulnerable women, it is only fair and humane. My daughter can’t see the point of me fighting trans ideology as she says it doesn’t affect me. But of course she has taken a lot for granted. We can’t do that, take anything for granted.
We don’t have laws against murder because we think everyone is a murderer. But we have to have laws against it in place.
We don’t think transwomen wish to abuse safe spaces and sport fairness but we have to have laws in place so that anyone with a penis saying they are female, for whatever reason cannot take advantage of spaces specifically designed for the protection of people with vaginas. It’s not rocket science.

I'm not so direct because I'm trying to be polite.... Consistently reading my words twisted and being insulted doesn't make for a comfortable discussion where I can safely talk as myself.
Please stop playing the victim?

My own thoughts about grannygranby's post are less about trust than about manipulation and misogyny, which I absolutely see happening, and which I point out on a regular basis.

When it comes to insults, I think that accusing people of 'spreading hate' is extremely insulting, and would like to see an example of that. I have asked for one, but I suspect that it will be ignored by trisher (like the request for an explanation of how someone 'presents as' a member of the opposite sex) until the conversation has moved on, at which point she will 'pop back in to see how things are going', as though she is supervising a class of older children whose teacher is off sick, and carry on as though nothing had happened.

That is an example of manipulation, and saying that a penis is never used as a weapon to terrify women is an example of misogyny.

Rosie51

VS I'm not so direct because I'm trying to be polite.... Consistently reading my words twisted and being insulted doesn't make for a comfortable discussion where I can safely talk as myself.
really? No reply to my post earlier this morning? Not even an apology for repeating again your ridiculous assertion that I 'fear' transwomen? And as for the bracelet suggestion...........

I do think you should examine your conscience as to why you don't think even religious or cultural obligations for a woman not to be intimately touched by a man she's not married to aren't worthy of respect. It does present as racial and religious prejudice.

Rosie

A, if I've used the wrong word, what's the right one and I will use that, I think I used "fear or concern". Not words chosen to make you look bad, fera and concern is just what I thought is causing these issues. You can correct me but I wasn't insulting you.

B, I am absolutely fine with anyone choosing who attends their physical or mental health needs. I think that can be done without actively discriminating against a group...

C, I have a sense of humour, that was the bracelet. Its not a great sense of humour but, I need it to get me through comments towards me like this one.

doodledog

I'm not playing the victim, if I was I'd be crying to gransnet or otherwise saying you were hurting my feelings.

My feelings are fine, I'm not angry or hurt, I grew up with an extremely verbally abusive mother, so I'm quite emotionally resilient as a result.

Pointing out issues with how people communicate is not playing victim, or are you playing victim when you do the exact same thing?

I'm being honest. If someone attacks my character I will defend it.

Wouldn't you?

I dont want men in womens refuges womens sport etc. I am discriminating against a group here if you think that saying that is discrimination.

I am absolutely fine with anyone choosing who attends their physical or mental health needs. I think that can be done without actively discriminating against a group...

How, if asking for a woman/female doctor is seen as discriminatory? How can women be sure that they will get what they have asked for in those circumstances (ie a woman, and not someone who 'identifies as' one)?

As a matter of interest, how do you think that your views differ from the so-called 'gender-critical' on here? It seems that you regularly say that you agree with fairly fundamental points, but then go on to argue the opposite when the wind changes. As a for instance, if you think, as you say, that people should have a choice about who attends physical or mental health needs, how does this square with your views about transpeople's right not to have to declare their trans status?

But what I don't understand and I have asked many times is how anyone imagines it is possible in anyway to decide who is trans and who is cis in a group of women.
No one who accepts transpeople is asking anyone to reinforce gender norms. In fact if you open the argument up beyond just transwomen and look at people, there is the most drastic change to gender expectations than at any time in the past. Some of you regard that as threatening I don't. It seems to me that the wider subject of transmen, non-binary, gender neutral and even gender fluid (which I fully admit I don't understand) is lost in this debate. But the idea that it is just transwomen and that it therefore somehow reinforces stereotypes is just wrong. Gender is being looked at examined and dismantled. There may be problems with what is happening at the moment but there are women involved in every group of people challenging gender norms and they deserve respect and acknowledgement. The idea that this is somehow just natal women against transwomen is just wrong.

Galaxy

I dont want men in womens refuges womens sport etc. I am discriminating against a group here if you think that saying that is discrimination.

Most people I know, including myself agree with you.

As long as there are refuges for trans people and mixed ability sports which is something we will need to work towards that's fine

I don't think that's discriminating, or I'd be doing it and that would make me very uncomfy

X posts not a problem Doodledog.

Still waiting for a straightforward answer to my question to give me another possible perspective on the use of penile related sexual stimulation and satisfaction.

Maybe it's too basic a question? One which can't be responded to straightforwardly without the use of unrelated diversion, obfuscation and general avoidance tactics in order not to be specific.

Anyone?

Doodledog

*I am absolutely fine with anyone choosing who attends their physical or mental health needs. I think that can be done without actively discriminating against a group...*

How, if asking for a woman/female doctor is seen as discriminatory? How can women be sure that they will get what they have asked for in those circumstances (ie a woman, and not someone who 'identifies as' one)?

As a matter of interest, how do you think that your views differ from the so-called 'gender-critical' on here? It seems that you regularly say that you agree with fairly fundamental points, but then go on to argue the opposite when the wind changes. As a for instance, if you think, as you say, that people should have a choice about who attends physical or mental health needs, how does this square with your views about transpeople's right not to have to declare their trans status?

The discrimination is in asking a trans women to register or compulsorily inform anyone of their trans status. This could be easily remedied by natal women volunteering to be registered as cis-women and asking for a cis-woman. No one is discriminated against nothing is compulsory all voluntary.
I know you will now say you reject the term cis-woman. So what in fact you are saying is that you should be permitted certain views but transwomen shouldn't be permitted theirs, which is the very essence of discrimination.

Its possible to tell peoples sex if thats what you mean trisher. Its not a superpower. Boris Johnson of the male sex. Caitlyn Jenner of the male sex. Julian Clary of the male sex. Grayson Perry of the male sex. All present very differently and many men challenge 'gender norms'. Still able to identify sex. If people want to pretend they cant thats up to them. It makes it quite difficult for me to believe them when they say things like 'look at this group of powerful men' because they seem to be quite clearly able to identify sex in those cases.

VioletSky

doodledog

I'm not playing the victim, if I was I'd be crying to gransnet or otherwise saying you were hurting my feelings.

My feelings are fine, I'm not angry or hurt, I grew up with an extremely verbally abusive mother, so I'm quite emotionally resilient as a result.

Pointing out issues with how people communicate is not playing victim, or are you playing victim when you do the exact same thing?

I'm being honest. If someone attacks my character I will defend it.

Wouldn't you?

Bringing your mother into threads about trans issues exemplifies playing the victim! It is passive aggressive, as it is an attempt to give you the advantage in a difference of opinion by making your 'opponent' aware that you are more fragile than most and that you should be cut some slack as a result.

It is a double whammy as you are claiming in this instance that it has made you emotionally robust - in which case why bring it up at all?

Pointing out issues with how people communicate is not playing victim, or are you playing victim when you do the exact same thing?
Eh? This is a contradiction in terms, surely? Either it is playing the victim or it isn't. For avoidance of doubt, I am absolutely not playing the victim when I point out manipulation or gaslighting. I refuse to be a victim of it, which is why I point it out.

As for running to GN, I am saying nothing, but I suspect that many people are astounded at that one.

Nannee49

X posts not a problem Doodledog.

Still waiting for a straightforward answer to my question to give me another possible perspective on the use of penile related sexual stimulation and satisfaction.

Maybe it's too basic a question? One which can't be responded to straightforwardly without the use of unrelated diversion, obfuscation and general avoidance tactics in order not to be specific.

Anyone?

Not having a penis or being that conversant with the functioning of this organ I don't feel qualified to answer. From what I do know the functioning of this body part is neither as reliable nor as predictable as some pretend or would have you believe. It reacts badly to drinking alcohol and immersion in very cold water. There are accounts by prostitutes of men finding sexual satisfaction in very odd situations, including one who was asked to roll oranges across the floor naked while the man watched.
Is that enough?
I don't really see what this has to do with trans issues and I'm beginning to wonder what your motives are Nanee49 still perhaps this will keep you happy.

trisher

But what I don't understand and I have asked many times is how anyone imagines it is possible in anyway to decide who is trans and who is cis in a group of women.
No one who accepts transpeople is asking anyone to reinforce gender norms. In fact if you open the argument up beyond just transwomen and look at people, there is the most drastic change to gender expectations than at any time in the past. Some of you regard that as threatening I don't. It seems to me that the wider subject of transmen, non-binary, gender neutral and even gender fluid (which I fully admit I don't understand) is lost in this debate. But the idea that it is just transwomen and that it therefore somehow reinforces stereotypes is just wrong. Gender is being looked at examined and dismantled. There may be problems with what is happening at the moment but there are women involved in every group of people challenging gender norms and they deserve respect and acknowledgement. The idea that this is somehow just natal women against transwomen is just wrong.

But the whole concept of transitioning is based on gender norms.

I'm not being difficult when I ask for definitions of 'woman' (or 'man') or what it means to 'present as' such. These things are fundamental to the argument.

The idea that you can 'just know' that you are a woman is meaningless unless you know what a woman 'is'. Surely you can see that?

Also, the definition of a woman as 'someone who presents as one' is not only tautological but based 100% on the gender norms that you claim to reject. 'Presenting' is all about gender norms.

I agree that these norms have shifted over the years, and IMO that is for the better. Where my views appear to differ from yours is that I do not want to see 'being a woman' as meaning 'presenting' in a particular way - to me that is a backward step.

If someone born male (a man, in most people's book) wants to follow traditionally female norms, I think that he should do so, and would fully support him in that. Obviously that applies to women wanting to follow male norms, too. What I do not believe is that this gives him the right to access all areas where women go to be safe from physically intact males, who are different from us in that they are (usually) bigger, stronger and in most cases have sexual urges driven by testosterone, because he is male and it is not possible to change that.

VS if I've used the wrong word, what's the right one and I will use that, I think I used "fear or concern". Not words chosen to make you look bad, fera and concern is just what I thought is causing these issues. You can correct me but I wasn't insulting you. given I'd already refuted the 'fear and concern' in an earlier post, using it again certainly seems deliberate and meant to demean.

I am absolutely fine with anyone choosing who attends their physical or mental health needs. I think that can be done without actively discriminating against a group.
but you gleefully informed me that any male with a GRC is legally female, so they'd meet the criteria if a woman requests a female doctor. So how does that work? You've stated asking for a female didn't solve the problem.

If you truly aren't racially or religiously prejudiced exactly what arrangements or words would you utilise to ensure religious or cultural obligations for a woman not to be intimately touched by a man she's not married to would be met by only a biological woman attending her? Then perhaps any woman could use the same words to ensure their wishes were complied with, but especially a rape or sexual violence victim.

A transwoman doesn't have the right access all areas where women go to be safe as I think you know Doodledog
That's the trouble with these threads. Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true.
Try acknowledging the law Transwomen even with a GRC can be banned from spaces.

But the whole concept of transitioning is based on gender norms.
But not everyone is transitioning. Choose to ignore non-binary and gender neutral if you wish. It's not about just two genders that's the whole point.

Doodledog

*I am absolutely fine with anyone choosing who attends their physical or mental health needs. I think that can be done without actively discriminating against a group...*

How, if asking for a woman/female doctor is seen as discriminatory? How can women be sure that they will get what they have asked for in those circumstances (ie a woman, and not someone who 'identifies as' one)?

As a matter of interest, how do you think that your views differ from the so-called 'gender-critical' on here? It seems that you regularly say that you agree with fairly fundamental points, but then go on to argue the opposite when the wind changes. As a for instance, if you think, as you say, that people should have a choice about who attends physical or mental health needs, how does this square with your views about transpeople's right not to have to declare their trans status?

I just blame abusive people for this, taking advantage of situations to harm others... I've experience of this too.

I don't blame trans people for this.

Because I'm not sure we can eliminate the abusive element of society completely it's tricky but I believe the equality act has left space for women to be protected and that should be honoured and we will get it right in time

I also think all the arguments about what is a woman doesn't really help, trans people deserve rights too and we need to look at the evidence they exist rather than saying we are experts in basic biology...

Try acknowledging the law Transwomen even with a GRC can be banned from spaces. Stonewall want the removal of single sex exemptions. trisher do you support or oppose that proposal?

I am not ignoring them. I dont agree that it will have any impact on sex discrimination if thats what you mean. A non binary person of the female sex will experience sex discrimination in a way that the male non binary person wont.

Also transition isn't based on gender norms or surgery would not be the end goal for many

Many younger people move in spaces without gender norms and trans people still exists among them

What spaces do you think exist without gender norms? The research is that people impose gender norms on babies pre birth.

Rosie if you are going to continue to accuse me of things when the simple truth is I just don't sit on gransnet, my life is busy, and sometimes I come back later I see I've missed several comments because the page hasn't refreshed....

Then I don't know what to say except, continuing to tell me who I am and what I mean won't help this discussion.

I've explained I wasn't being derogatory, so either except it or don't.

trisher The discrimination is in asking a trans women to register or compulsorily inform anyone of their trans status. This could be easily remedied by natal women volunteering to be registered as cis-women and asking for a cis-woman. No one is discriminated against nothing is compulsory all voluntary. hmmmm that only works if having held my nose and registered as 'cis' the doctor has also registered as 'cis' and as it's voluntary who knows? Or would it be assumed that anyone who hadn't registered as 'cis' was in fact 'trans', by default, thus revealing their status. It would surely follow the way of 'preferred pronouns'. Of course when a female doctor is requested a transwoman doctor would know they weren't included in the patient's definition. They wouldn't have to declare their trans status, just not attend the woman. Simple. no compulsory reveal.