the law as it stands on sex

VioletSky

Galaxy

I dont want men in womens refuges womens sport etc. I am discriminating against a group here if you think that saying that is discrimination.

Most people I know, including myself agree with you.

As long as there are refuges for trans people and mixed ability sports which is something we will need to work towards that's fine

I don't think that's discriminating, or I'd be doing it and that would make me very uncomfy

I suspect what is most needed at the moment are suggestions of how to differentiate without discriminating Those are in very short supply, with nothing in between "if you look female, you are female" and being forcibly stripped to reveal genitalia, or having a compulsory DNA test.

This is the big problem with self-IDing combined with the law that says that if someone says they are female, then they must be considered identical to naturally born and developed females who have done all (or a selection of) the female things - secondary female characteristics, menstruation and menopause, to name but a few, plus ovulation, conception, childbirth, and lactation, with postnatal depression as an encore. That is without adding in the basic difference in DNA.

No-one seems to be trying to find uninvasive and tactful ways of making sure that where biologically male trans men wish to share "all-female" facilities, they can be screened to check whether they are welcome.

VioletSky

Rosie if you are going to continue to accuse me of things when the simple truth is I just don't sit on gransnet, my life is busy, and sometimes I come back later I see I've missed several comments because the page hasn't refreshed....

Then I don't know what to say except, continuing to tell me who I am and what I mean won't help this discussion.

I've explained I wasn't being derogatory, so either except it or don't.

Fine I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I'll accept you didn't mean to be derogatory. Any chance you could address the other two paragraphs in my post?

I haven't told you who you are at all. I have explained why I'm concerned about what appears to be a lack of concern for women who have cultural or religious obligations with regard to men touching them intimately.

Elegran maybe a proper data base should be set up, where it can be noted that someone has a GRC etc

That would help ensure everyone gets the appropriate medical care too while still respecting people's gender and using the correct pronouns.

Someone having a grc makes no difference to me in terms of womens spavws. Still male. Its not like a magic wand.

Spaces even.

Rosie I respect their right to choose who attends them but I don't actually know what the rules are in emergency situations for some religions.

I have Muslim friends and I do know they see male doctors and surgeons for all bodily areas (without talking specifics about my friends here). I've never asked anything about that in regards to religion though. We generally don't talk about religion at all actually except for one friend who has not converted but lives abroad with her Muslim husband and children, who still likes to celebrate Christmas so I send her gravy.

Thank you for your reply trisher.

I'm sorry you haven't grasped my "motives" in highlighting this in relation to trans issues...bit of a confrontational word "motive" but I'll let that pass.

I'm well aware that there's lots of routes to sexual satisfaction and if I went to the GPs and there was orange rolling going on I'd think odd but hey ho! it takes all sorts BUT I would not be involved in any parts of the jollies because I choose not to be.

And orange rolling or having cream cakes thrown at me while manacled in a dungeon as I've read - the sex worker in question brought an industrial relations action against her bosses for repetitive strain injury, not sure how that went - or whatever turns you on is immaterial to my question as all those actvities are overt, identifiable and refuseable if we don't wish to participate.

No anecdote in the absence of evidence I've seen on any trans threads so far will make me accept all penises with their attached bodies are benign.

I will not be forced to go against my refusal to engage with any fully attached, fully functioning penis not of my choosing in any capacity because I'm told it's alright and safe to do so.

doodledog if I mention my mother it's just because I'm reminded of her and I don't have a filter.

I'm estranged from my mum and I am no one's victim thank you.

I have reported exactly one comment which I suspected was an alternate profile and I was right.

I have reported 1 entire thread.

Please feel free to report this comment to gransnet as I am happy for them to confirm that to you.

I also have no idea who does report.

If people are getting reported perhaps they should ensure they stay within guidelines and bare in mind others read these threads.

A transwoman doesn't have the right access all areas where women go to be safe as I think you know Doodledog. That's the trouble with these threads. Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it true. Try acknowledging the law Transwomen even with a GRC can be banned from spaces.

and

But not everyone is transitioning. Choose to ignore non-binary and gender neutral if you wish. It's not about just two genders that's the whole point.

Two separate posts, both in response to my attempt (below) to find some sort of mutual understanding:

But the whole concept of transitioning is based on gender norms. I'm not being difficult when I ask for definitions of 'woman' (or 'man') or what it means to 'present as' such. These things are fundamental to the argument. The idea that you can 'just know' that you are a woman is meaningless unless you know what a woman 'is'. Surely you can see that? Also, the definition of a woman as 'someone who presents as one' is not only tautological but based 100% on the gender norms that you claim to reject. 'Presenting' is all about gender norms. I agree that these norms have shifted over the years, and IMO that is for the better. Where my views appear to differ from yours is that I do not want to see 'being a woman' as meaning 'presenting' in a particular way - to me that is a backward step. If someone born male (a man, in most people's book) wants to follow traditionally female norms, I think that he should do so, and would fully support him in that. Obviously that applies to women wanting to follow male norms, too. What I do not believe is that this gives him the right to access all areas where women go to be safe from physically intact males, who are different from us in that they are (usually) bigger, stronger and in most cases have sexual urges driven by testosterone, because he is male and it is not possible to change that. (spacing removed to keep the formatting, but otherwise unedited)

It is very clear from these posts alone (never mind the accusations of 'spreading hate' and all the other insults posted in the past) that you are only interested in attempting to score points by twisting what I am saying. I thought (perhaps wrongly) that your post was a genuine answer to the question about presentation and gender norms, and that you were also trying to move the debate on, but instead you resort to this. I don't think that repeating something makes it true, and saying that I am choosing to ignore the non-binary or gender-neutral is clutching at straws.

You have 'chosen' to ignore the important part of my post, and not offer any opinion on how 'presenting as' someone of a different sex is (or is not) reinforcing gender norms instead of breaking them down.

But you know this, of course, as will anyone reading the exchange who has followed any of the numerous threads on the subject. These are the Great Unanswered Questions. What is a woman, how does someone know they are one, and what has 'presentation' do do with 'gender'?

Ignore, deflect, divert, insult, avoid as much as you like - the questions remain, and as long as they remain unanswered, your arguments flit about like straws in the wind.

As I have said earlier I am a woman, why should I have to register as a cis woman, and if I want to be seen by a woman who is an adult human female in a professional capacity why can't I just say that?

grannysyb

As I have said earlier I am a woman, why should I have to register as a cis woman, and if I want to be seen by a woman who is an adult human female in a professional capacity why can't I just say that?

Absolutely.

And the notion that people should need to register to confirm what is on their birth certificate, which is already registered (by a registrar, no less!) is about as bonkers as bonkers gets.

Woman wanting to have agency is seen as 'uppity' in some quarters, though. Particularly if a male person might consider it disrespectful.

This, from trisher who thinks it unjust to ask TW to identify them selves.

This could be easily remedied by natal women volunteering to be registered as cis-women and asking for a cis-woman. No one is discriminated against nothing is compulsory all voluntary.

And you can’t see how ludicrous your posts on this are? Trans must not have to identify themselves as trans to get what they want, but natal women have to do do.
And you think that’s not discrimination, (which you don’t like) ?

I haven’t asked that any trans register or compulsorily inform anyone of their Tirana status.
. Only that they don’t fraudulently represent themselves as biological females when I ask for a biological female.

You see nothing wrong in what you’re saying?

doodledog can you please acknowledge when you have seen my last reply to you so that I can feel comfortable you have let go of an untrue perception.

VioletSky

Rosie I respect their right to choose who attends them but I don't actually know what the rules are in emergency situations for some religions.

I have Muslim friends and I do know they see male doctors and surgeons for all bodily areas (without talking specifics about my friends here). I've never asked anything about that in regards to religion though. We generally don't talk about religion at all actually except for one friend who has not converted but lives abroad with her Muslim husband and children, who still likes to celebrate Christmas so I send her gravy.

As I keep saying it's not emergency situations I'm addressing, it's routine treatment. You say you respect their right to choose, but you aren't saying how that right to a female attendant should be achieved. You stated that a male with a GRC is legally female so asking for a female is useless. I'd just like to know how you would ensure a woman who requests it is seen by another female, by which I mean biological woman. This is the question you've not answered in any affirmative way. Respect without action is useless.

I don't suppose your Muslim friends are in full burkas, or even niqabs. They are happy to be intimately examined by unrelated males, their husbands must also be very liberal, although I'm surprised none of them would prefer another female but that's their choice. Many Muslims, especially where I live, do not support such liberal attitudes, even my friends that restrict themselves to just a hijab or headscarf. In fact many of the women will not even shake a man's hand, and that's before Covid did its worst.
Orthodox Jews have many similar 'obligations' that restrict intimate contact with any man but their husband.

VioletSky

doodledog can you please acknowledge when you have seen my last reply to you so that I can feel comfortable you have let go of an untrue perception.

I acknowledge that I have read it. You can take from that what you will .

grannysyb

As I have said earlier I am a woman, why should I have to register as a cis woman, and if I want to be seen by a woman who is an adult human female in a professional capacity why can't I just say that?

Well I suppose it depends on if you are more interested in getting stuff done or in registering your particular preference. As I said before you can't really blame transwomen for demanding their preferences be listened to and acnowledged if you insist yours must be. So the pragmatic thing to do would seem to be setting up a voluntary cis woman register, then those who need a cis-woman can get one.If you are so hung up on language you can't accept that, you could be accused of putting your own interests before vulnerable women's

Why don't they put up a trans women's register?

It might seem odd doodledog but I tend to take things at face value. Along with judging people for myself

Yes I did Rosie I used cis, you don't like that so asked you what an alternative would be...

We are going around in circles

It's not something I need to do, I'm not bothered who attends me. I'm just a body to them

Just register everyone on a database somewhere... A simple one. The amount of times I've been shocked at a medication that made me worse because of the doctor missing a pre existing condition

Mollygo

This, from trisher who thinks it unjust to ask TW to identify them selves.

This could be easily remedied by natal women volunteering to be registered as cis-women and asking for a cis-woman. No one is discriminated against nothing is compulsory all voluntary.

And you can’t see how ludicrous your posts on this are? Trans must not have to identify themselves as trans to get what they want, but natal women have to do do.
And you think that’s not discrimination, (which you don’t like) ?

I haven’t asked that any trans register or compulsorily inform anyone of their Tirana status.
. Only that they don’t fraudulently represent themselves as biological females when I ask for a biological female.

You see nothing wrong in what you’re saying?

Discrimination requires a degree of compulsion or insistance The registering as a cis woman would be voluntary so not compulsory. If a woman didn't want to register no one would make her.
You are insisting the transwomen must reveal her status.
My solution makes no requirement of a transwomen. But means that cis women can access the care they need.

Exactly grannysyb and it is an example of biological women having to something 'extra' because some believe there's a difference between a cis woman, a woman and/or being female.

They are one in the same and do not include TW whether or not they have a GRC.

What we need is respect and understanding. We need any TW whose chosen profession means they may be called upon to perform anything of an intimate nature, to understand that if a woman requests another woman that does not mean them, and to respect that right.

If it wasn't so disturbing it would be funny Mollygo to know that anyone thinks that it's OK to suggest that biological women identify themselves as 'cis' so that TW don't feel discriminated against.

I was thinking the same thing Rosie no devout Muslim would entertain being examined by a male doctor.

VioletSky

Elegran maybe a proper data base should be set up, where it can be noted that someone has a GRC etc

That would help ensure everyone gets the appropriate medical care too while still respecting people's gender and using the correct pronouns.

There is already a document in existence which shows a person's biological sex, as it was recorded at their birth, which has to be shown in certain circumstances. If that had been changed at some point since then - perhaps subsequent medical treatment has discovered unusual DNA, or, as it is now possible for trans people to have their birth certificate altered, that may have been done.

However, if the original record has been destroyed/deleted and the edit to it is not itself recorded, then a trans person's actual biological status has vanished.

I don't think it should be legal for the original certification to be removed/deleted - an edit to it, with date and authorisation, should be retained on or along with the original and the changed version. Is that done? I am not familiar with this.

We don't carry those around though Elegran..

One thought I had, given howlittoe space information can be stored in these days, is a simple ID card. It could be quickly scanned for all relevant information. Different organisations could have different access levels.

So if someone is unconscious and an ambulance comes, they could quickly check for pre existing conditions like diabetes and administer quick appropriate treatment

It could even contain religiously pertinent information, information on who we prefer treatment from, information about DNRs, whether we want blood transfusions, organ donor status etc

I agree with you about birth certificates Elegran and as they are a historical and legal document, as far a I'm aware the biological status at the time of birth cannot be changed.