the law as it stands on sex

Funny that.

Chewbacca

^Charlie didn’t raise the matter with the manager, but ‘publicly via social media’^

That might have something to do with the fact that he's a YoungLiberalsUK Trans Representative | Trans Rights Activist Doodledog

Or as they used to be known 'agent provocateurs'.

Smacks of cakes and rooms and all other sorts.

GillT57

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

I think she has hit the nail on the head personally. This is a woman who lived through the sexual revolution, who fought for women to be recognised, and it is tragic if she is now dismissed. I am sure she upset an awful lot of men in her day, and it is sad if she is now being sneered at by the very women whose rights she fought for.

GillT57

Ab-so-bloody-lutely. And very succinctly put.

Chewbacca

^Charlie didn’t raise the matter with the manager, but ‘publicly via social media’^

That might have something to do with the fact that he's a YoungLiberalsUK Trans Representative | Trans Rights Activist Doodledog

You mean he went in there just to promote his cause?
And might not have really wanted a dress at all?
Surely not.

I don't know if he went in "to promote their cause" Charlie is 18 and a young person looking to resolve their gender issues. The response from Monsoon was not what has been posted on here. He didn't go to the media the media picked it up from Twitter.
The condemnation of one young person on this site vividly portrays that what lies behind all of these threads is not concern for anyone looking at transition or questioning their gender, but absolute and unequivocal prejudice which doesn't mind castigating someone who has only just reached adulthood.
As for the remarks about Muslim families. I'm sorry but if you choose to shop in a place which is open to the public you cannot expect others to cater to your religius beliefs. So you may not want a man in the changing area but if a woman has a male carer, a man is shopping with his daughter, a husband brings a dress in a different size to his wife they are going to be there. Just as an 18 year old exploring their gender should be allowed to try on a dress. I don't approve of having public places subjected to religious restrictions which demonise women and have no place in the western society generations of women have fought for. By all means have your rules, just don't expect everyone to comply with them.
Here's Monsoon's reply to Charlie

Completely irrelevant but I didnt know they were still trading. I thought they had gone into administration.

I'm sorry but if you choose to shop in a place which is open to the public you cannot expect others to cater to your religius beliefs.
yet you constantly tell us we can have female only spaces? Isn't gender ideology a 'belief', some of its adherents certainly have a religious zeal about them? You are demonstrating so often lately that you really don't want females to have any right to privacy, and your sop about the law is just that, a sop.

Rosie51

^I'm sorry but if you choose to shop in a place which is open to the public you cannot expect others to cater to your religius beliefs.^
yet you constantly tell us we can have female only spaces? Isn't gender ideology a 'belief', some of its adherents certainly have a religious zeal about them? You are demonstrating so often lately that you really don't want females to have any right to privacy, and your sop about the law is just that, a sop.

A public changing room in a shop with no indication of if it is male or female is not a female only space. That's the trouble with this discrimination it begins by saying refuges matter, then moves into shops and changing rooms, how long before women are told "that's your safe area-stay in it."

He didn't go to the media the media picked it up from Twitter!??? Just letting you know Twitter is media. Who put it on Twitter?

To be fair if monsoon didnt label the changing room they wont have a leg to stand on. They need to have changing rooms segregated by sex or go for mixed sex changing.

Obviously mixed sex changing carries certain risks for the company but in a sense that is up to them. Some companies quickly change back to sex segregated facilities when it doesnt work out for them as a company.

So it is OK for Muslim women to be restricted in their choice of where to shop, because their religious belief about undressing in front of random males is not part of your beliefs, Trisher ? You can reject their rights because you reject their belief?

That means it is OK for those who reject the belief that a man can become a woman are equally justified in saying that a man is not welcome in a space where women expect privacy.

poshpaws

GillT57

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

I think she has hit the nail on the head personally. This is a woman who lived through the sexual revolution, who fought for women to be recognised, and it is tragic if she is now dismissed. I am sure she upset an awful lot of men in her day, and it is sad if she is now being sneered at by the very women whose rights she fought for.

GillT57

Ab-so-bloody-lutely. And very succinctly put.

I'm glad people still like Germaine Greer but imagining she would support your views on how women are threatened by transwomen is a mistake
About fear she said
“Trauma is something that is dictated really by the sufferer,” she said to Australian broadcaster ABC on programme Q & A.

You know, I can’t bear huntsman spiders. It’s not their fault. It’s my fault. I’ve decided to be frightened of them. Now, it’s interesting to me that women are encouraged all the time to be very frightened, and nearly always of the wrong thing.”

The response from Monsoon was not what has been posted on here.

The response from Monsoon that I posted was sent to those customers who emailed them to query what had actually happened in the shop. The responses that trisher has provided are Twitter replies. HTH.

As for the remarks about Muslim families. I'm sorry but if you choose to shop in a place which is open to the public you cannot expect others to cater to your religius beliefs

Interesting reply. A Muslim woman shouldn't expect to have her needs for a female only environment, in a female clothes shop, because she should accept that a male may want to try on a dress in there. The male's needs and demands trump the woman's.

I don't approve of having public places subjected to religious restrictions which demonise women and have no place in the western society generations of women have fought for

I don't approve of having women's safe places being subjected to men demanding to use them, so that women no longer feel safe or comfortable using them. Your condemnation and dismissal of the religious requirements, of Muslim women in particular, is shocking trisher, truly shocking. Your comment clearly shows that there are no women that your not willing to throw under the bus, just to enable a tiny % of the male population get what they demand. I have no idea what kind of feminist you are but whatever it is, it doesn't have women's safety, rights and privacy at it's cornerstone.

Charlie could, if he'd wanted, have done what thousands of other people do: ordered online and tried the dress on in the privacy of his own home. But maybe that would have defeated the object.

Rosie51

^I'm sorry but if you choose to shop in a place which is open to the public you cannot expect others to cater to your religius beliefs.^
yet you constantly tell us we can have female only spaces? Isn't gender ideology a 'belief', some of its adherents certainly have a religious zeal about them? You are demonstrating so often lately that you really don't want females to have any right to privacy, and your sop about the law is just that, a sop.

Really Rosie51 I’m at a loss to follow trisher’s constantly twisting comments.
You can have ( except when) . . .
The law says . . . (Except when)

And then . . .He didn’t go to the media?

What is Twitter except a media platform?

Seems we’re all wrong ??? unless we’re trans, non-binary, deep-voiced, strong and muscular, and only discrimination à la trisher counts as discrimination.

On GN trisher only you make the leap from women are allowed . . . to women are confined but I don’t know enough about your personal life to know if that is your experience. If you are confined by a male, then you have my sympathy trisher.

He chose a female dress shop -fair enough.
He was asked to wait as the changing rooms were full of women “who are entitled to safe spaces by law” fair enough.
He should have equal rights with the women in the shop.
Equal where both points of view can be satisfactorily met?
Please Explain how that could happen in this circumstance.

He “felt humiliated” Not good.
So humiliated that he broadcast his humiliation on a Media platform even though you say,
He didn't go to the media.

Elegran

So it is OK for Muslim women to be restricted in their choice of where to shop, because their religious belief about undressing in front of random males is not part of your beliefs, Trisher ? You can reject their rights because you reject their belief?

That means it is OK for those who reject the belief that a man can become a woman are equally justified in saying that a man is not welcome in a space where women expect privacy.

Yes, that's pretty startling. This huggy-touchy "all encompassing inclusion" obviously doesn't extend to those restricted by religious practices and culture.?

Muslim women, from culture rigid households, cannot just tell the old man to do one, and get undressed in front of who they like.

It doesn't work like that.

They are ruled by the diktats set down by male members of the family.

So, in this new world, in a woman's clothes shop, which Monsoon is, we shouldn't assume that the changing rooms are for women?

A husband going in to buy a surprise dress for his wife, wouldn't, I assume, need to try it on??

We can cheerfully exclude those biological females, restricted by religion/culture, from buying clothes, in a clothes shop set up to sell women's clothes?

But, we have to pander to "Charlie" a biological male, because he's got special rights to go where he likes?

Because, God forbid, if he can't buy his dress, or has to wait for his turn in a changing room, he has a hissy fit and then he's all over social media, playing the victim?

Give me strength.....?

Elegran

So it is OK for Muslim women to be restricted in their choice of where to shop, because their religious belief about undressing in front of random males is not part of your beliefs, Trisher ? You can reject their rights because you reject their belief?

That means it is OK for those who reject the belief that a man can become a woman are equally justified in saying that a man is not welcome in a space where women expect privacy.

No one is asking them to undress in front of random males Elegran the changing rooms have cubicles for undressing in. Men may enter the area outside the cubicles and pass things to their wives (who may be disabled and not able to easily leave the changing area) a father may wait for his daughter. A transwomen or non-binary person may be in the next cubicle.
it's a public area.
And if a woman chooses not to use it because of those things it is her choice. I didn't use the open changing areas shops once had because I didn't like them.

I reject the idea that anyone's beliefs have the ability to infringe on any other persons freedom to follow the normal pursuits of life, providing those pursuits cause no harm to anyone.

DiamondLily

Elegran

So it is OK for Muslim women to be restricted in their choice of where to shop, because their religious belief about undressing in front of random males is not part of your beliefs, Trisher ? You can reject their rights because you reject their belief?

That means it is OK for those who reject the belief that a man can become a woman are equally justified in saying that a man is not welcome in a space where women expect privacy.

Yes, that's pretty startling. This huggy-touchy "all encompassing inclusion" obviously doesn't extend to those restricted by religious practices and culture.?

Muslim women, from culture rigid households, cannot just tell the old man to do one, and get undressed in front of who they like.

It doesn't work like that.

They are ruled by the diktats set down by male members of the family.

So, in this new world, in a woman's clothes shop, which Monsoon is, we shouldn't assume that the changing rooms are for women?

A husband going in to buy a surprise dress for his wife, wouldn't, I assume, need to try it on??

We can cheerfully exclude those biological females, restricted by religion/culture, from buying clothes, in a clothes shop set up to sell women's clothes?

But, we have to pander to "Charlie" a biological male, because he's got special rights to go where he likes?

Because, God forbid, if he can't buy his dress, or has to wait for his turn in a changing room, he has a hissy fit and then he's all over social media, playing the victim?

Give me strength.....?

He was hauled out of a cubicle DiamondLily
And yes I have concerns about Muslim culture infringing on ours. That doesn'tmean I am prejudiced or against Muslim women being provided with seperate facilities if they need them.
It does mean that I don't agree with anyone being expected to limit access to a public area.

If you want to know where I'm coming from. I once felt very intimidated when with my GS in a public park because a large number of Muslim men occupied a certain area. The women and children were in the play area and I could have gone there, but the grassy area where my GS and I usually kicked a ball about was obviously designated as the "male"area. And strong independent bolshie woman that I am I felt I couldn't go there.

Read Germain Greer about women being encouraged to be frightened of the wrong thing. Transpeople really aren't the threat to women's freedoms. Religious fundamentalism is.

trisher

DiamondLily

Elegran

So it is OK for Muslim women to be restricted in their choice of where to shop, because their religious belief about undressing in front of random males is not part of your beliefs, Trisher ? You can reject their rights because you reject their belief?

That means it is OK for those who reject the belief that a man can become a woman are equally justified in saying that a man is not welcome in a space where women expect privacy.

Yes, that's pretty startling. This huggy-touchy "all encompassing inclusion" obviously doesn't extend to those restricted by religious practices and culture.?

Muslim women, from culture rigid households, cannot just tell the old man to do one, and get undressed in front of who they like.

It doesn't work like that.

They are ruled by the diktats set down by male members of the family.

So, in this new world, in a woman's clothes shop, which Monsoon is, we shouldn't assume that the changing rooms are for women?

A husband going in to buy a surprise dress for his wife, wouldn't, I assume, need to try it on??

We can cheerfully exclude those biological females, restricted by religion/culture, from buying clothes, in a clothes shop set up to sell women's clothes?

But, we have to pander to "Charlie" a biological male, because he's got special rights to go where he likes?

Because, God forbid, if he can't buy his dress, or has to wait for his turn in a changing room, he has a hissy fit and then he's all over social media, playing the victim?

Give me strength.....?

He was hauled out of a cubicle DiamondLily
And yes I have concerns about Muslim culture infringing on ours. That doesn'tmean I am prejudiced or against Muslim women being provided with seperate facilities if they need them.
It does mean that I don't agree with anyone being expected to limit access to a public area.

If you want to know where I'm coming from. I once felt very intimidated when with my GS in a public park because a large number of Muslim men occupied a certain area. The women and children were in the play area and I could have gone there, but the grassy area where my GS and I usually kicked a ball about was obviously designated as the "male"area. And strong independent bolshie woman that I am I felt I couldn't go there.

Read Germain Greer about women being encouraged to be frightened of the wrong thing. Transpeople really aren't the threat to women's freedoms. Religious fundamentalism is.

I don't like religious dogma, any more than anything else. Any crowd if youths can be intimidating, I agree. Regardless of culture.

But, the Muslim women are ruled by men, and the results can be punitive, if they disobey - I don't agree with it, I was bought up as a free woman, but it exists.

Until this changes, I think they should, as biological women, have priority, in a shop that sells women's clothes.

Monsoon seemed to be issuing a slightly different version of events, as to what happened to Charlie.

Perhaps recollections varied?

I read Germaine Greer msny years ago, like her very much, and I totally agree with her view of "what a woman is". ?

I dont think transpeople are a threat to women. I think men are. Not all men blah de blah.

Actually we’re back to discrimination only works if it is discrimination that suits trisher.

Not to self: must remember that trisher doesn’t recognise Twitter as the media!

Mollygo

Actually we’re back to discrimination only works if it is discrimination that suits trisher.

Not to self: must remember that trisher doesn’t recognise Twitter as the media!

Mollygo perhaps we should distinguish between the mainstream media which I believe Charlie was originally accused of going to and social media which is every teenagers go-to. So Charlie didn't go to the MM it was picked up by them from social media (Happy?)
It doesn't really matter. Charlie is someone who was born male at present identifies as non-binary and is considering transition. You would imagine all those concerned about young people transitioning and males presenting as females would applaud his position. You would imagine all those who think it's OK for men to be men and wear dresses would be encouraging him to experiment and try on prom dresses. You would imagine that anyone would sympathise with the problems Charlie is experiencing and be supportive of them. But no they are condemned, they are villified, they are castigated. It just shows how supportive people really are.

If my son takes his daughter clothes shopping he is going to stand outside the cubicle asking her all the time if she is alright, while she is trying things on. I don't think anyone whatever their sex, gender or religion has the right to stop him doing that.

What is the intersectional feminist view of Muslim women (women being the people who put the ‘female’ in ‘feminism’) being culturally unable to use a woman’s clothes store because someone claiming to have no gender wants to try on a prom dress so that they can attend a social event ‘presenting as’ a woman?

Is it the Intersectional Feminists who default to male rights trumping female ones, or is that just your default, trisher?

Another of the numerous unanswered questions I have asked you on this topic is whether you have ever posted anything that puts women before transwomen or men. It seems that the answer is still no?

There are restrictions on women in most, if not all, religions of which I strongly disapprove. But I also believe that people have a right to freedom of religion, and that right is not remotely based on what I think. How is the answer to restrictive practices to restrict them further? In any case, there are many women, of all faiths and none, who don’t want to get changed in front of men, and Charlie does appear to be a rather attention-seeking person who would be unlikely to be subtle or discreet in the changing room.

The struggling Monsoon is, of course, now at risk of being demonised by the Trans lobby. On about post three we had the valiant VS poised to withdraw her custom, and the Charlie-inspired Twitterstorm is only likely to put more jobs at risk at a time when prices and inflation are rising. But never mind - the chances are they are only women’s jobs anyway.

No men were harmed in the staging of this unedifying incident?

So true DD in all sections.

trisher is now lecturing me on the difference between Twitter, which lots of people use including me and “the media” as she understands it. ( yawn)
It might give me a headache, so I’ll have to go and rest.

Charlie’s not condemned or vilified by me, though I may “castigate” him for going to the media to complain that he was asked to wait in a women’s clothing shop.

Is it just me or does anyone else get the impression that you don’t care about AHF and girls, trisher?

We are supportive of AHF and girls and for that we are condemned, we are villified, we are castigated. It just shows how supportive you really are!

Incidentally, how do you ensure equal rights for both parties when those rights are in direct opposition to each other? Still waiting.

Arguably Doodledog Charlie was harmed but as a non-binary person struggling with gender identity I gather thay don't count. (although I do think some on this thread regard him as a man so your statement is questionable)

Muslim women are of course women and many of them suffer appalling levels of discrimination and do not have the civil rights other women have achieved which intersectional feminism recognises.
They shoud be provided with spaces where they can change privately. However they should not be able to dictate who uses the adjoining cubicle or the space outside the cubicle unless the area has been specifically designated a female changing room.
No one was changing in front of anyone. There were cubicles. The area was not a designated female area.

As far as female rights goes I think my GD has the right to have her dad standing outside her cubicle if she is trying on clothes, she isn't old enough to be left completely alone.