the law as it stands on sex

Life experience has taught me to take nothing on face value...I really don't understand why you would take some random's word on anything.

How can you know due safe guarding diligence has taken place in any formal organisation? The police? Hospitals?

So, so many horrific stories recently ending in tragedy and directly related to the shocking failings of those organisations because of peoples' misplaced trust in authority.

Until there are way more stringent checks and balances in place I'm certainly not going to be told what I should and shouldn't be accepting in a vulnerable situation.

Chewbacca I haven’t read that particular Mumsnet thread you posted about at 15:44.12, but was it about/mention Jessica Yaniv (just one of the names he’s known by)?
I’ve seen several selfies of him taken whilst he’s in woman’s toilets, alongside which he describes how he likes to advise/help young women with their menstrual needs. He’s infamous for trying to sue people for various things, lots about this is available online.
The only good thing I can say about him is that he appears never to have travelled to the UK.

Let's hope he never does grannydarkhair.

Think that might be the one grannydarkhair but, to be fair, there seems to be quite a few predatory males who are using the "but I say I'm a woman so I must be accepted in all women's places" and they use that for their own sexual gratification and most definitelyhave bad intentions. Just one woman being used or abused in this way is one woman too many and I'm glad to see that this subject is being more openly discussed and dissected in main stream media and that intelligent, well informed people are saying that this really isn't ok.

Mollygo

Trisher
My solution makes no requirement of a transwomen. But means that cis women can access the care they need.

???

My solution makes no requirement of a transwomen either, except that they do not fraudulently misrepresent themselves as biological females when I ask for a biological female.
They simply need not appear and show me any certification. They need only not appear at all.

Your statement implies that
all transwomen cannot be trusted enough not to fraudulently misrepresent themselves

I think that’s rather unfair of you. I would have thought it applied only to a few TW, but hey, you’re the one supporting that group so if you think they are untrustworthy, I’ll take your word for it.

Does anyone besides trisher
really think that NO tw can be trusted enough not to fraudulently misrepresent themselves
by presenting themselves when a female has been asked for?
Does anyone, even trisher, think that seeing a declaration or certificate that the AHF asking is a biological female would make any difference if the honesty of a TW couldn’t be relied on before?

Amazing how someone can misinterpret posts so often. It really doesn't help debate if you continue to do this.
What I said was you cannot insist all transwomen declare their trans status. You could ask for a voluntary declaration, but I think you have all said that some transwomen could not be trusted, so presumably this would not suffice. I have no idea about how many transwomen could not be trusted, but it is obvious from the posts that many of you feel this.
Taking the onus off transwomen and giving the initiative to natal women would mean that wouldn't matter. Women would be safe and could access the medical care they chose. Not recognisig this shows that actually it isn't a solution you require,it's just another way to denigrate transwomen.

Below is the abstract of a book entitled The she-male phenomenon and the concept of partial autogynephilia

details here:

The term autogynephilia denotes a male's propensity to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself with female attributes. Some autogynephiles imagine themselves, in their sexual fantasies, as complete women. Others, here called partial autogynephiles, imagine themselves with a mixture of male and female anatomic features, usually women's breasts and men's genitals. Partial autogynephiles evince a particular sexual interest in those individuals known in the vernacular as she-males. These are men, often involved in prostitution or pornography, who have undergone breast augmentation while maintaining their male genitals. Partial autogynephiles appear less likely to pursue surgical sex reassignment than gender-dysphoric men whose erotic self-image includes a vagina. Some patients with a persistent desire for women's breasts but no or conflicted desires to live as women full-time or undergo vaginoplasty may be pacified with mildly feminizing doses of estrogenic hormones.

This may explain why so many transwomen keep their male genitals, when gender dysphoria would usually include a desire for complete transformation to the physical appearance of the opposite sex, including a vagina. Autogynephiliacs' fetish is only satisfied when they are believed to be female, which can explain why they get so angry with lesbians who refuse to have sex with them (this refusal bursts their bubble as it proves that they have not 'passed' successfully).

As heterosexual men, they are attracted to women, and as they think that it is not always possible to tell transwomen from the real thing, they assume that lesbians will be attracted to them. The flaw in this thinking is (of course) that lesbians are attracted to women, and are (on the whole) unlikely to find so-called 'chick dicks' remotely attractive.

This may also explain the desire for these men to be around women in changing rooms and loos, and to be assumed to be female, whilst not wanting to transition fully.

Yes, there are a lot of them Chewbacca, so much for being told “it’ll never happen”. I suppose it could be said that the likes of Jessica Yaniv do us a favour by being so open about his ways of finding sexual gratification.
What really gets to me is that in all of the photos I’ve seen of JY in women’s toilets, there’s always at least one young, as in school age, girls in the background behind him. What girl of that age, if she’s alone, is going to have the bravery to challenge him? And if she did, how might he react?

Trisher
???‍? why do you persistently misinterpret my posts? It’s soo upsetting.
You say
What I said was you cannot insist all transwomen declare their trans status.

I have never asked that all TW declare their status.
My solution makes no requirement of a transwomen to declare their status, simply requires that they do not fraudulently misrepresent themselves as biological females when I ask for a biological female.
How is that so difficult for you to grasp?

Even simpler version:

They simply need not appear and show me any certification. They need only not appear at all when I have asked for a biological woman, a natal woman or an AHF.

Taking the onus off transwomen ???

How much less onus can you give TW than letting them NOT turn up and fraudulently misrepresent themselves as female when a natal female has been requested to attend?

The choice is whether to lie by appearing or not to lie by staying away?
What do you think the TW should do, trisher, lie or not lie?

If there was no chance of some of them being so dishonest, we would not be having this discussion.

Not all TW are inclined to commit fraud, but those who are, and those who support their dishonesty by adding caveats like
taking the onus off TW or Giving natal women the initiative (which they already have by asking for a natal female) are
making it difficult for people to see any TW as trustworthy in this situation.

That makes a lot of sense Doodledog; from reading some of the tweets, it's obvious that sexual arousal is the main aim. I also believe that some of that satisfaction is gained by knowing that women are being made powerless to voice their concerns and worries and are accused of transphobia if they say anything. It must be a nightmare for shop staff, who have the responsibility of having to allow men not necessarily in frocks into women's changing, and know that they daren't say anything but are aware that, sometimes, those men have sinister motives for being there.

It's almost certainly the case that they get sexual satisfaction from the power imbalance, yes. Again, the refusal by some to recognise this is misogynistic in the extreme. Whilst a mature woman might be able to deal with it (depending on the situation), it is just not fair to put a young girl through it just so someone can get his kicks.

A non-binary teenager has been left ‘humiliated’ after they claimed staff at a Monsoon store in Birmingham kicked them out of the changing rooms.
Charlie Moore, 18, was shopping for the perfect outfit for their school prom and was hoping to try on a few gowns at the branch in Grand Central.
But what was meant to be a magical moment quickly turned ugly.

Moments after the sixth form pupil entered the changing rooms, a Monsoon staff member allegedly told them to get out as ‘the store did not allow men in there’, even though the cubicles were not labelled by gender.

Speaking to Metro.co.uk after the incident, they said: ‘What happened made me feel very unwanted – like Monsoon didn’t want my business, which I suppose is true.
‘It was humiliating. You know, it takes a lot of courage for someone who is not traditionally feminine presenting to go to a store and try on dresses, for then to be told “you’re not welcome”. It’s a shock to the system.’ Charlie said: ‘We took the clothes to the changing room cubicles, which were open and not labelled by any gender.
‘I started to undress and then I heard this lady call for me outside “excuse me, we don’t allow men in here, you’re going to have to wait outside”. Five minutes had passed and the same lady told me “you can’t wait here, you have to wait at the front” because apparently they had lots of complaints from women and children. So, I had to wait by the tills for my partner.
Upset about how they were treated, Charlie took to Twitter yesterday to question the fashion brand about their store policies.

Sounds sad doesn't it? But have a look at the email from Monsoon's CEO which puts a somewhat different perspective on the events and why he was asked to wait. Clearly Charlie isn't used to being asked to wait but I'm grateful to the shop assistant for insisting that he did .

So the CEO of a company squirms his way out of what was plainly discrimination and you approve. There was no label on the changing rooms. Charlie if they were asked to wait plainly didn't hear anyone ask. The first they knew was someone saying they weren't allowed in there and misgendering them. They were obviously in a cubicle and so not a danger to anyone..
This was plainly an example of how the gender norms so many of you claim you want to see abolished will be applied in the future.Why should a non-binary person have to wait while familes use changing rooms if there are cubicles.? What possible danger could they present?

Clearly the changing rooms were already full with families trying on clothes and so Charlie was asked to wait. Why should that be a problem?

A new article from Kathleen Stock: 5 Rules for Dealing With Transactivists:

unherd.com/2022/04/five-rules-for-dealing-with-transactivists/

This is another example of the fact that you can’t have equal rights.

The families (presumably women and girls) wanted the right to use the changing rooms without an obvious male in there.
Charlie wanted to use the changing rooms to try on a dress.

I’m not saying who should have the right to choose, just that you can’t have “equal rights” where everyone is happy.

I’d love a follow up story where Charlie is allowed to buy an outfit and share the wearing of it at the school prom. That would really make the point.

Chewbacca

Clearly the changing rooms were already full with families trying on clothes and so Charlie was asked to wait. Why should that be a problem?

Funny isn't it you accept a statement from a CEO who wasn't there but ignore a non-binary person who was. True bias.If the changing rooms were full how on earth did they manage to start undressing in one?

trisher

So the CEO of a company squirms his way out of what was plainly discrimination and you approve. There was no label on the changing rooms. Charlie if they were asked to wait plainly didn't hear anyone ask. The first they knew was someone saying they weren't allowed in there and misgendering them. They were obviously in a cubicle and so not a danger to anyone..
This was plainly an example of how the gender norms so many of you claim you want to see abolished will be applied in the future.Why should a non-binary person have to wait while familes use changing rooms if there are cubicles.? What possible danger could they present?

But I thought you said that if a woman wouldn't use the changing rooms because a transwoman was there that the law could be applied to say no? Is this not the law you keep quoting in action? You like to tell us that all we have to do is object, and we can have single-sex spaces, but now it's happened you don't approve.

It does seem hard on Charlie, but at the same time, the article says that the cubicles were open. My memory of Monsoon changing rooms is that there are cubicles which are basically curtained off areas that open onto a main area, where friends can wait to give opinions on the clothes people are trying on. I'm guessing that the families were in there. If they were open, presumably the families could see inside, and they will have expected not to see male-bodied people in there. The manager pointed out that this was in Birmingham in Ramadan, which is presumably code for saying that the families in question were Muslim, so even less likely to be happy with the situation. He was asked to wait, not asked to leave - there is a difference.

It's not about presenting a danger. It's about making people uncomfortable. No store manager will want to make customers uncomfortable - it's bad for business, and one person's discomfort set against whole families' is never going to take precedence.

Incidentally, the changing rooms would be labelled by sex, not gender, but in any case there was no need as Monsoon is a women's clothing store. They don't sell men's clothes, so there is no need to have men's cubicles. If they had been labelled, where would Charlie have gone anyway? Surely you aren't suggesting that in a small store selling women's clothes there should be changing facilities for men and non-binary customers as well as for the women who make up the vast majority of their customers?

It seems that Charlie went to The Metro with the story, so the 'humiliation' can't have been too devastating.

It's a real shame they were treated that way trisher. And then also ridiculed and called a liar on the internet. They don't deserve that for simply wanting to buy a dress. I really don't understand how we have gotten to a place this dark.

I like Monsoon usually but I may email them and ask them to convince me they are inclusive to all their customers before they get any more of my money.

It sounds like Monsoon doesn't have changing facilities that suit all their customers... What if a dad took his child shopping there and needed to use the changing room and walked in because there were separate cubicles and no signs on the door? Can he not buy cute clothes for his child either?

What a shame.

But I thought you said that if a woman wouldn't use the changing rooms because a transwoman was there that the law could be applied to say no? Is this not the law you keep quoting in action? You like to tell us that all we have to do is object, and we can have single-sex spaces, but now it's happened you don't approve.

I’ll wait for the stories of a dad taking his child shopping to start appearing.

Oops, sorry, they already have.

Was Charlie ridiculed and called a liar? I didn't see the article in The Metro, but I suppose if you involve the press (or social media) in something like that you must be ready for the comments that are pretty much inevitable.

It sounds as though in this case they were being inclusive to their Muslim customers, who are also deserving of consideration (much as when it comes to intimate touching by male-bodied professionals). E&D covers quite a range of different types of people, and rightly so. I'm sure they have considered the 'dad' problem (if there is one) and that if the changing rooms are busy the occasional dad who wants to use them would also be asked to wait.

Doodledog But I thought you said that if a woman wouldn't use the changing rooms because a transwoman was there that the law could be applied to say no? Is this not the law you keep quoting in action? You like to tell us that all we have to do is object, and we can have single-sex spaces, but now it's happened you don't approve. this absolutely!
We only have Charlie's version (of those present), and of course as a non-binary person (especially of the male sex variety) there's absolutely zero chance Charlie is embellishing this tale. Sort of smacks of those stories of mothers protesting that their little angel was sent home from school for having the wrong uniform/haircut/piercings/packed lunch etc etc
What does intrigue me is how does a non-binary of the male sex who isn't traditionally feminine presenting (their own words) decide they need to wear a dress (stereotypically female wear that could be used to confirm transwoman status) to the prom?

Yea, and Monsoon prom dresses are very traditionally female attire.

And Charlie didn’t raise the matter with the manager, but ‘publicly via social media’.

Posted too soon - And Charlie didn’t raise the matter with the manager, but ‘publicly via social media’, so maybe it’s not that it was a case of a shy non-binary lad being humiliated by the attention, but someone who would draw attention deliberately in the changing area?

Funny isn't it you accept a statement from a CEO who wasn't there but ignore a non-binary person who was

No "funnier" than you ignoring the testimony of the shop assistant who was there trisher.

And then also ridiculed and called a liar on the internet. Eh?

It sounds as though in this case they were being inclusive to their Muslim customers, who are also deserving of consideration

That's the impression that I got with the CEO's comment too Doodledog. The appreciative comments, from so many women that have followed this, show just how important single sex spaces are. What hasn't been very well appreciated, however, are Charlie's comments describing the assistant.

Charlie didn’t raise the matter with the manager, but ‘publicly via social media’

That might have something to do with the fact that he's a YoungLiberalsUK Trans Representative | Trans Rights Activist Doodledog