War crimes in Ukraine

Devastating news from the Ukraine. I don't even have the words.

Something I cannot understand is how the Russians can spread lies that the Ukrainians are killing their own people, that the people in the bombed hospital were actors.... what is wrong with these people that they can tell bare faced lies and believe them??? The Russians did all of these atrocities and more that no one knows yet.

And yet apparently the Russian people believe them. I hope it’s just that they’re too frightened to admit the truth. But they’ve been lied to for years and it amounts to brainwashing. In all my life I never thought we’d see these sorts of atrocities in Europe again. I thought WW2 was supposed to have have been the war to end all wars in Europe. We see appalling wars in other parts of the world, Syria immediately comes to mind, and we are shocked by the brutality, in particular the beheading of people, but we’ve become used to thinking that NATO would protect Europe, but it’s been rendered impotent because of nuclear weapons, or mutually assured destruction. I could weep.

Just read the climate crisis threads, the old Brexit threads (I think even those people are beginning to see the lies) and the anti-vax threads on this forum, OnwardandUpward.

People will believe a great deal, however gullible it seems to those who would rather deal in facts, if it supports what they want to be true.

One of the good things is that journalists are reporting that these people are "believed to have been killed by Russian troops". We know they are looking for evidence. Sadly though it takes time for evidence to catch up with lies.

I am sure this will seep through to the Russian people but some will never believe or, as has already happened with the Brexit propaganda, it will be re-written or given a nuance it didn't have at a time so the "believers" can live with themselves.

Further back than that maddyone, WW1 was the war to end all wars! A forlorn hope indeed. I guess the Russians believe the news their government puts out because to believe anything else is too horrendous. No of course drugs and brainwashing is no excuse, but with ill trained, perhaps inadequately educated easily influenced'cannon fodder' it always has the desired effect. The Russian authorities have a lot to answer for, Putin in particular, which this war has demonstrably exposed.

maddyone

The BBC reported Zelensky’s visit to the war crimes scenes at Bucha as ‘alleged war crimes.’ Isn’t the body count of hundreds, the shallow graves and the mass graves, plus the evidence of women reporting rapes enough for the BBC? These crimes aren’t ‘alleged,’ they happened and the pictures we’ve all seen show absolutely that they’ve happened.

I think it is just a technicality until there is a conviction or court verdict, although I do agree that it is hard to hear.

Before we demonise the Russian people for believing the propaganda being fed to them, we need to remind ourselves of the really sick broadcaster, Alex Jones, in USA who insists that the Sandy Hook massacre of primary school children was all staged and the parents of the murdered children are actors. he has been ordered to stop, but some of his followers see this as part of the conspiracy. Compare this in a free society to the Russian people who have been fed propaganda since birth.

That’s a frightening reminder GillT57 of the power of propaganda, especially on those who want it to be true.

I read yesterday about the paediatrician involved in repairing the bodies of little girls, the oldest aged 10. They had been subject to multiple rapes, their tiny bodies ripped vulva to anus. (Allegedly) by Russian soldiers who people re;or Ted to be on drugs like amphetamine and alcohol. I know that paedophiles can be aroused by infants and toddlers as well as children of any age or gender. I simply find myself unable to understand how a group of men who may be fathers, brothers, uncles can behave like this. Become sexually enraged and aroused. I read that the soldiers are told to see the enemy as animals, as inhuman. Similar to the way the Nazis viewed the Jewish people, people with disabilities, Roma, homosexuals.
As someone posted earlier, a thin veneer indeed

There really can be no way back for Russia from this, it is bad enough as we all read of the atrocities, and watch it unfolding on our TV night after night, but eventually, it will come to an end, and then the world will have to face up to the reality, countries such as China, India, Hungary, Belarus who may not have actually supported Russia, but have not condemned them either, will be forced to face what the rest of the world has seen. When the trials start, and evidence is given, what then? Will the Russian people finally face the truth of the atrocities committed in their name? Even when the invasion of Ukraine is over, there is still an lot of awful things to be dealt with, the trauma, the rebuilding, the hatred of most of the world. Russia may, should, end up as pariah state and the repercussions, even after the bombings, murders, rapes have stopped are going to be long lasting.

Trouble is war crimes never make it to court for many years after the horrors have taken place therefore people like Putin are often not alive to receive the public humiliation and life sentences they deserve.

Molisavitch (spelling sorry) was tried, So were many Nazi. I don’t know how Putin could face a war crimes court , Russia is in no way democratic and who /how could he be arrested
It’s so dreadful

Putin will never be brought to trial so long as he never leaves Russia or in the extremely unlikely event Russia becomes a truly democratic country and the government hand him over . Realistically this very unlikely to happen.

Sadly, I don't think Putin will stand trial; the only way this atrocity will end is for someone close to him to assassinate him, he is on the endgame now and cannot retreat. However, he is not the only one responsible, and I don't think the 'only following orders' defence will be accepted when people like Sergei Lavrof are put to trial. He is the one who publicly states that all the film footage of Ukraine showing devastation and bodies of civilians are the work of Ukraine, fake news, done by actors. Remember the phrase 'fake news'? Trump liked to use it, also thought that Putin was a 'good guy'.

Excellent program about fake news on the BBC last night, with Ian Hislop. Worth watching if you can on catch up. It was a repeat but had reference to the Russian situation.

Was that the one about the paedophile ring run by the Clintons, under a pizza restaurant? I saw that first time round, and it is truly frightening just how people get carried along by something they want to believe, and no amount of proof will convince them. It is nothing new, it happened with scandal sheets handed out in the streets in Georgian times. Interesting programme.

Yes, that's it GillT57.

The one where the guy turned up with a gun to storm the basement and save the children...in a building that doesn't have a basement.

I feel physically sick when i hear/read what the Russians are doing to those poor Ukrainians.
Putin needs sorting asap.

Iam64

Molisavitch (spelling sorry) was tried, So were many Nazi. I don’t know how Putin could face a war crimes court , Russia is in no way democratic and who /how could he be arrested
It’s so dreadful

Slobodan Milošević.

His son Marko was suspected of war crimes too but fled (it is believed) to Russia and allegedly lives in Moscow.
Birds of a feather

Anyone listening to the Russian speaking at the UN? If it wasn't so bl**dy awful it would be funny.

Zelenskyy is such a disappointment after so much promise and you can tell that there are Nazis in Ukraine because they have tattoos.

No, I didn't.
I might just weep (again)
Or start raging in frustration.

I’ve just seen a video on twitter of what is being found as the Russians get pushed out of the villages that they invaded.

It looks exactly like pictures we saw of the Nazi atrocities.

Whitewavemark2

I’ve just seen a video on twitter of what is being found as the Russians get pushed out of the villages that they invaded.

It looks exactly like pictures we saw of the Nazi atrocities.

... And the atrocities committed by the Russians against the Germans in WWII in revenge for what the Germans did to them earlier in the war.

And so it goes on unless we decide it must stop. The law must punish the wrongdoers. Truth must be told. We must learn to live together.

After WWII, The Treaty of Rome, leading eventually to the EU, was signed in 1957. Since then nations have grown to forget, people felt everything was fine. They wanted different, peace would look after itself. What we felt was important after the war - peace - lost its importance.

The United Nations began in October 1945 when 51 countries committed to maintaining international peace and security.

So much was done in the first years after WWII. Sadly, it seems as if the lessons have been forgotten or even simply discarded.

In my opinion the Russians should be ejected from the UN. They are not fit to be in it.

It's a pity that the EU especially Germany cannot bite the bullet and ban the importing of oil, has and coal that are clearly helping Putin fund this war and these appalling atrocities. Surely sovereign EU member states could act independently? Why don't they? Money clearly overrides people. Shameful organisation, thank god we're not members any more.

It would help a lot if pressure was put on China to condemn Russia
The Russian people do have a pretty good idea what is going on but the daren’t comment for fear of being jailed. WMD and Nuclear weapons would have been used if “mutually assured destruction” was not guaranteed.
Parallel Ukraine with Vietnam, if defenders are determined they make it impossible to occupy a country however many bombs you have.

Jaberwok

It's a pity that the EU especially Germany cannot bite the bullet and ban the importing of oil, has and coal that are clearly helping Putin fund this war and these appalling atrocities. Surely sovereign EU member states could act independently? Why don't they? Money clearly overrides people. Shameful organisation, thank god we're not members any more.

They have acted both independently and together for support and impact. The EU acting as a unit is very powerful.