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The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

(1001 Posts)
Elegran Wed 13-Apr-22 20:54:23

This article sets out the law, in a way which doesn't use jargon words.There are explanatory notes after each item. This is a very interesting read, and it is not always the same as is generally thought to be.
fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/
The part about exceptions begins down the page a bit, at the heading When is discrimination based on sex and gender reassignment lawful?"^

Galaxy Sat 16-Apr-22 16:53:01

One of the things that would help ensure the safety of transwomen if you look at the murder rate is as quickly as possible supporting them to exit prostitution. This is not saying that transwomen are in prostitition anymore than any other section of society its just that is one of their highest risk factors in terms of the murder rate globally. Yet usually (and I stress I am not referring to anyone on this thread) those who are most vociferous about trans women are women are equally vociferous that sex work is work. I dont believe most of these people give much concern for the safety of transwomen to be honest.

trisher Sat 16-Apr-22 16:54:05

snowberryZ

Chewbacca

So should women just pipe down trisher? Accept that males will be amongst us in places that we'd rather they were not? Accept that when they've committed the most heinous acts against us, if they claim that they're "one of us", we should accept it with a smile and trot on? Should we smile and accept that we have little chance of winning in any competitive sport because the 6'2", 18 stone bloke with a six pack and a beard says he's "one of us"? Should we smile with gratitude when the rape counsellor sent to support us after that particularly vicious assault, is a bloke in a wig who first wants us to get our silly little heads to accept that he's "one of us"?

I would also like to hear your views on this most excellent post Trisher.

Especially this bit

^Should we smile and accept that we have little chance of winning in any competitive sport because the 6'2", 18 stone bloke with a six pack and a beard says he's "one of us"? Should we smile with gratitude when the rape counsellor sent to support us after that particularly vicious assault, is a bloke in a wig who first wants us to get our silly little heads to accept that he's "one of us"?^

These are the sort of ridiculous statements that really annoy me. It's just as if by saying I think transwomen are women I am saying rape is OK. Of course I'm not.
But if the only way you can counter an argument is by attributing things like that to me well what's the point of debating? Because it is pointless. And no matter how many times I post that the law is the law and it should be enforced. That all violence whoever commits it is wrong. That rape is wrong (whoever the victim is). That discrimination, hate speech and all other forms of victimisation are wrong.
That sport needs a thorough overhaul which should be led and instigated by women and particularly involve black women. That it has never been the equal opportunities operation some of you seem to think it has
No matter what I say you are going to come back with some stupid scenario twisting my views. I can't change how you think. Only you can do that. But at least try to post something relevant and not just dramatic propaganda.

Doodledog Sat 16-Apr-22 17:00:59

trisher

^The fight is not about not letting men into changing rooms - that is a symptom more than it's the problem itself. It's about having boundaries, having agency, having the right to be women on our terms, not on the terms of men who want to muscle in on the best bits of being a woman.^

Transwomen suffer abuse, are subjected to violence, are raped, are discriminated against and are poorer. Could you please explain to me how these are "the best bits of being a woman".

Women are abused, subjected to violence, are raped, discriminated against and are poorer than men. Up to now, the statistics are still there to prove it. Those stats will no longer make sense if/when men who say they are women are included, however.

Where are the stats to show the same applies to transwomen, please?

I don't doubt that there is some discrimination against some transwomen. I have seen it myself. Tbh, though, at least some of that is because of the nature of the people being discriminated against (and here, I am not referring to all transpeople). If someone insists on everyone in a meeting using a preferred pronoun, reports colleagues who haven't realised their situation for misgendering them, is hyper-sensitive to anything that could possibly be interpreted as 'against' them, then yes, others are unlikely to react badly. Not because the person concerned is non-binary/trans, but because they are a pain in the arse.

Also, there are definite, recorded and proven gender differences when it comes to people vocalising ideas in public spaces. Men do it far more than women. Anyone who has ever attended a class, a meeting or a party will be aware of that, but the research is out there to be read. It is far more noticeable, therefore, when transwomen, who were socialised as male, continue to give everyone their uninvited opinion, continue to mansplain, and continue to dominate discussions. When they do it as men it's annoying, but everyone is used to it, but when they do it in a dress it really stands out.

There are, of course, other examples of how male and female behaviour differs, and how transwomen (understandably) continue to display the male behaviour they are used to - of course they do. It's understandable, but it may explain some discrimination.

There is no excuse for violence, and I'm not a fan of whataboutery, but I have never heard a gender-critical feminist advocate that transpeople should die in grease fires ir be raped with 'chick-dicks', or organise to have them sacked from their work, or cancelled on the media. TRAs do that all the time, though. They will use the language they want, the threats they want and behave how they want to. As men are more inclined than women to do.

Many transpeople (the non-violent, non-TRA ones) have serious mental health issues, which is a shame (and not, IMO helped by the behaviour of TRAs), but may explain their relative poverty. It's impossible to know if their trans status plays a part, or if it is purely a MH issue, however, as there is (rightly) no register of transpeople, so no way of getting reliable statistics, such as the ones you appear to think exist.

Chewbacca Sat 16-Apr-22 17:17:03

stupid scenario twisting my views.

Except each one of those scenarios has actually happened. Over and over again. So I'll repeat:

Maybe if the TRAs (and their allies) hadn't been so verbally and physically aggressive and violent, women would have listened to them and leant our support. Instead they chose to cancel us.

varian Sat 16-Apr-22 17:31:45

Rosie51

varian

I'm happy to call transwomen women and use "she" and "her" in relation to them.

One of my teenage grandchildren has a non-binary friend who was a girl. She has changed her name to a name which could be male or female and all her classmates and teachers use the new name and also "they" and "them". It doesn't seem to cause those around them a problem. It is just accepted.

And you'd be equally happy if you or one of your female relatives was raped by a transwoman with a functioning penis, and in court you had to refer to your rapist as 'she' and 'her' ? It has happened and will happen again.

No I would not be at all happy if someone I knew was raped, but surely that is more likely to happen if the rapist is a man, rather than a man pretending to be a woman?

I'd like to see the statistics. How many women in the UK have been raped by men pretending to be women and what percentage is that of all women raped by men?

Smileless2012 Sat 16-Apr-22 17:39:10

Your post @ 16.24 doesn't make sense trisher. You've said you "would never refer to an individual woman or a group of women who object to the term cis as yes" and @ 15.24 you posted you would "continue to use the term cis ......... well sorry you are just going to have to put up with it" so which is it?

Where has someone accused you of saying that you think rape is OK because you think trans women are women? The examples of men as trans women unfairly competing against women in sport are not stupid scenarios they have and are happening.

Doodledog Sat 16-Apr-22 17:40:05

All rapes are carried out by men. This is why a lot of women don't want men (however they 'identify') to be in spaces where women are particularly vulnerable - eg undressed, ill or distressed.

Smileless2012 Sat 16-Apr-22 17:42:17

A man pretending to be a woman is a man varian.

varian Sat 16-Apr-22 17:43:59

A man pretending to be a woman in order to prey on women is certainly a man. A despicable man. No-one would disagree with that.

Doodledog Sat 16-Apr-22 17:49:01

varian

A man pretending to be a woman in order to prey on women is certainly a man. A despicable man. No-one would disagree with that.

Some would disagree. The people who insist that women refer to their rapists as 'she' in court would disagree. The people who insist that TWAW - No Debate would disagree.

VioletSky Sat 16-Apr-22 17:58:31

varian

A man pretending to be a woman in order to prey on women is certainly a man. A despicable man. No-one would disagree with that.

No I wouldn't have any time or patience for anyone who would disagree with that.

Smileless2012 Sat 16-Apr-22 18:02:25

Indeed varian which is why women's safe spaces are so important. Yes they would disagree DD.

Rosie51 Sat 16-Apr-22 18:20:02

varian

Rosie51

varian

I'm happy to call transwomen women and use "she" and "her" in relation to them.

One of my teenage grandchildren has a non-binary friend who was a girl. She has changed her name to a name which could be male or female and all her classmates and teachers use the new name and also "they" and "them". It doesn't seem to cause those around them a problem. It is just accepted.

And you'd be equally happy if you or one of your female relatives was raped by a transwoman with a functioning penis, and in court you had to refer to your rapist as 'she' and 'her' ? It has happened and will happen again.

No I would not be at all happy if someone I knew was raped, but surely that is more likely to happen if the rapist is a man, rather than a man pretending to be a woman?

I'd like to see the statistics. How many women in the UK have been raped by men pretending to be women and what percentage is that of all women raped by men?

I'm not sure I understand completely what you're saying. Transwomen, the majority of whom elect to keep their penises, want to have sex using those penises. Some claim to be lesbians and would like lesbians to have penis in vagina sex with them. When you refer to "men pretending to be women" do you mean transwomen, or are you separating out those that would rape?
Rape can only be committed by a man, you need a penis to commit rape. A transwoman rapist may 'identify' as a woman, but they aren't female. A victim of rape has been ordered to refer to her rapist as she and her. Can you imagine the extra distress that causes? Any woman testifying against her rapist will suffer huge distress having to relive the ordeal. To add to that by compelled speech that negates her very real experience in order to placate a male desire is disgusting in my book.
I'm not sure the statistics you want have ever been compiled. What is known is that a higher percentage of transwomen offenders are in prison for sexual offences than the percentage of male prisoners in the male estate. I'm not sure why you want to compare the percentage of rapes by transwomen with those committed by men. All rapes are committed by men. Every one is one too many, but at least with a rapist who is known as a man the victim isn't made to lie on giving evidence in court.

Chewbacca Sat 16-Apr-22 18:37:44

but at least with a rapist who is known as a man the victim isn't made to lie on giving evidence in court.

Or face charges of Contempt of Court for "misgendering" her rapist or attacker. And, if the rapist is given a custodial sentence, he will very likely be sent to serve his sentence in a women's prison where he continues his assaults on his female co prisoners. And if they dare to speak out, they too are given additional punishments for "misgendering" him.

Galaxy Sat 16-Apr-22 18:43:16

Sorry I dont really understand what people are saying. Are you saying that people who murder or sexually assault suddenly become 'men pretending to be women' rather than transwomen. Do you think transwomen dont commit crime? Why on earth would you think that. Its like saying gay people dont commit crime or people eith brown hair dont commit crime. I apologise in advance if I have misunderstood!

Doodledog Sat 16-Apr-22 18:49:28

Galaxy

Sorry I dont really understand what people are saying. Are you saying that people who murder or sexually assault suddenly become 'men pretending to be women' rather than transwomen. Do you think transwomen dont commit crime? Why on earth would you think that. Its like saying gay people dont commit crime or people eith brown hair dont commit crime. I apologise in advance if I have misunderstood!

I would be interested in answers to this, too. We won't get them though. I have repeatedly asked about the difference between a woman, a transwoman and a man in a dress (to clear up just this sort of confusion), but the question was treated with distain.

Rosie51 Sat 16-Apr-22 18:59:51

Are you saying that people who murder or sexually assault suddenly become 'men pretending to be women' rather than transwomen.
I don't want to put words in varian's mouth but that was the vibe I was getting from 'men pretending to be women"

Galaxy Sat 16-Apr-22 19:01:25

Sorry varian to be clear I am not particularly asking you to answer that. Its something have heard quite a lot really.

varian Sat 16-Apr-22 19:14:33

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):
76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3%
13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison =
16.8%

Figures from November 2020/

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

So it seems that of the sex offenders in prison when this study was done, 76 were transwomen and 13, 234 were men, so about 0.6% of sex offenders were transwomen.

varian Sat 16-Apr-22 19:15:52

T
hHat is ignoring the 125 sex offenders who were women.

VioletSky Sat 16-Apr-22 19:17:44

It's a simple conclusion based on evidence shared on these threads that some men fetishise women I can't remember the official term now but I think it was Chewbacca who shared it

Rosie51 Sat 16-Apr-22 19:23:24

So it seems that of the sex offenders in prison when this study was done, 76 were transwomen and 13, 234 were men, so about 0.6% of sex offenders were transwomen.
Sorry I don't get your point varian there aren't equal numbers of transwomen and men who identify as men so......

varian Sat 16-Apr-22 19:23:57

So of the sex offenders in UK prisons as of 2020

98.50% were men
0.93% were women
0,57% were transwomen

I don't see transwomen as the biggest threat

Rosie51 Sat 16-Apr-22 19:26:42

One thing is clear. Transwomen (males) can and do rape women. Their victims are forced to lie about what their eyes and bodies tell then, that a man violated them, and are compelled to use she and her to describe the attack. As Chewbacca pointed out, under treat of contempt of court if they misgender a bit of scum.

Rosie51 Sat 16-Apr-22 19:37:15

I don't see transwomen as the biggest threat And? Are victims of transwomen rapists any less raped? Are they less violated? I'm disgusted that any victim should have to place her rapists delicate feelings above the truth and use female pronouns for him. I'm sorry you don't appear to be.

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