The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

The problem with older feminists is that they sometimes fail to recognise that feminism has moved on. They are stuck in the 1970s and like many left leaning men fail to acknowledge or recognise their own privilege and the degree of discrimination suffered by some women and other minorities. It's a big mistake to think that age gives you any sort of real advantage when looking at how society is developing.

DiamondLily

The Green Party are being sued, for "institutional sexism" after some non-TW supporter members claim they have been purged and blocked by "TERF" warnings added to software.

One ex-official says she has been assaulted twice:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10725149/Green-Party-sued-ex-official-claims-leaders-purged-members-questioned-trans-policy.html

This is Dawn Furness who stood as a candidate for the Green Party with this manifesto
Trans rights
RR530 The Green Party recognises that there are many gender identities that are within, and outside of, the traditional gender binary of man and woman. The Green Party recognises that trans men are men, trans women are women, and that non-binary identities exist and are valid. We shall respect transgender and non-binary people's identities as real. The Green Party shall include, and push for further acceptance of, transgender and non-binary people within all areas of society.

RR531 The Green Party believes that trans, non-binary, genderqueer, third gender, and intersex people should have their gender legally recognised and be empowered to update their birth certificate and any other official documents, without medical or state encumbrance. We support the right for individuals to update their legally recognised gender by self-determination, the only requirement being a statutory declaration, to how they would describe their gender, including having the option to change their name on all documents.
The fact that she has changed her mind isn't the party's fault. Usually when that happens you just join another party.

The problem with old trans sectional or intersectional feminists as they prefer to be known, is that they can support the opportunistic males who use their trans persona to damage AHF women and girls and support the erosion of female rights in true feminism in the happy knowledge that they will not be around to suffer the effects that this damage and erosion will have , nor to take the blame for the impact on and the sufferings of, their grandchildren and their grandchildren’s grandchildren.
It’s as if they have a bucket list for the damage and harm they can do for others. Not something a normal person would aspire to do but then . . .

The problem with older feminists is that they sometimes fail to recognise that feminism has moved on. They are stuck in the 1970s....

You think? GN is, unarguably, an older demographic and you could be forgiven for believing that it's only us older feminists who are fighting the codswallop that is "anyone can be any sex they want to be". But it's obvious that you're not looking at a wider range of media to support your theory. MN has a much younger, and more international, membership and they don't appear to support your theory at all. In fact, I posted a link just yesterday that actually mentioned the impact that MN is having on the trans debate. You could have educated yourself via the Woman's Place or Fair Play for Women or Justice for Women to see that all ages and demographics of women are speaking out. Try to widen your research horizons; the one you currently hold is seriously out of date.

We can all see that feminism has moved on, but what some don't seem to be able to see is that in some areas this is detrimental to the cause and to women.

Moving on to the extent that TW are regarded as women is moving backwards, when this results in women only spaces being available to any man who wishes to identify as a woman.

As for being "stuck in 70's" I can understand why some may hark back to how things were then, never imagining that in 2022 we would once again be fighting for the security and respect our predecessors fought so hard and bravely for.

At the end of the day we are all feminists. And as feminists:

We cannot allow this idea that intersectional feminism supporting minority groups as going through different types or levels of discrimination somehow leaves an idea of average, everyday women, at some kind of disadvantage. Its just not true.

We cannot allow the idea that, if we aren't putting this idea of average every day women, first then we are trying to disadvantage them. It's just not true.

We cannot allow the idea that, an average, everyday women even exists and one country is home to some sort of perfect important women because due to country of birth we are all a minority in another.

We cannot allow the perpetuation of the idea that, by seeking equal rights for all we give rights or support to law breakers and those who don't agree and abide by the principles of equality for all, safety for all, acceptance for all.

We cannot allow ourselves to be shut down individually by untruths, personal attacks or perceptions that are anathema to our principles and ourselves.

We aren't enemies, there are no sides, just women, fighting for what matters to them. On the whole, eventually I think we will find a place to come together.. If not on these threads, at least in society where everyone who lives an authentic life that does not harm others can do so safely and without verbal or physical harm.

I disagree with all of that.

trisher

The problem with older feminists is that they sometimes fail to recognise that feminism has moved on. They are stuck in the 1970s and like many left leaning men fail to acknowledge or recognise their own privilege and the degree of discrimination suffered by some women and other minorities. It's a big mistake to think that age gives you any sort of real advantage when looking at how society is developing.

I should have known it would be a problem with us personally ??

I am not ‘stuck’ anywhere. I am older than I was - as are you, in case you hadn’t noticed! Like many on here, I have children and young family, and I work with young people-I’m not some kind of fossil who lives separated from the zeitgeist. I don’t think that age matters in this, but since you brought it up, I believe that you are more than 10 years older than me (I am 62). What makes you think you are different from the rest of us, and somehow still in touch??

Did you mean to go on to discuss men, or was that a cut and paste you forgot to edit? There have always been ‘brocialists’ (leftie men with old-fashioned ideas about women). In fact their heyday was probably the 70s when their type led the unions and much of the LP. My dad was one, and in the 70s (when I was a teenager ?) I seemed to spend most of my time arguing with him about his attitudes. My ideas are no more aligned with his than with any point in history- they are influenced by now, and by other women.

As for privilege- anyone and everyone who posts on here has a certain amount of privilege. Are only the poor and downtrodden allowed an opinion, or are you also suggesting that you alone are able to rise above your privilege (as well as your age) and, unlike the rest of us, think for yourself?

Talk about misguided superiority - your post is mindblowing in its arrogance.

I disagree with everything in the post at 13:06.
I don’t wish to be seen as part of the “we are all feminists” that the poster vouches for as views I have seen in posts do not support the true meaning of feminism.

Announce it on your own behalf VS. What you put is like an instruction to say that all feminists agree with you and that is patently untrue.
An ex friend-let’s call her Mimi, would also make all encompassing statements like yours, as if everything was about her and what she said must be the truth.
It was always all about Mimi!

Doodledog

trisher

The problem with older feminists is that they sometimes fail to recognise that feminism has moved on. They are stuck in the 1970s and like many left leaning men fail to acknowledge or recognise their own privilege and the degree of discrimination suffered by some women and other minorities. It's a big mistake to think that age gives you any sort of real advantage when looking at how society is developing.

I should have known it would be a problem with us personally ??

I am not ‘stuck’ anywhere. I am older than I was - as are you, in case you hadn’t noticed! Like many on here, I have children and young family, and I work with young people-I’m not some kind of fossil who lives separated from the zeitgeist. I don’t think that age matters in this, but since you brought it up, I believe that you are more than 10 years older than me (I am 62). What makes you think you are different from the rest of us, and somehow still in touch??

Did you mean to go on to discuss men, or was that a cut and paste you forgot to edit? There have always been ‘brocialists’ (leftie men with old-fashioned ideas about women). In fact their heyday was probably the 70s when their type led the unions and much of the LP. My dad was one, and in the 70s (when I was a teenager ?) I seemed to spend most of my time arguing with him about his attitudes. My ideas are no more aligned with his than with any point in history- they are influenced by now, and by other women.

As for privilege- anyone and everyone who posts on here has a certain amount of privilege. Are only the poor and downtrodden allowed an opinion, or are you also suggesting that you alone are able to rise above your privilege (as well as your age) and, unlike the rest of us, think for yourself?

Talk about misguided superiority - your post is mindblowing in its arrogance.

No why should I think my age gives me any advantage over others who live in a very different world to the one I do. I think if you isolate yourself and only gather opinions from those close to you or your own age then your view will be restricted. It's why I constantly try to open myself up to younger people and those who are still active. It sometimes means that I am challenged and I wonder "What the hell is going on" But then on reflection I often find that a problem I had largely ignored is being dealt with.
I've had a few videos sent recently where the person starts with a long description of themselves, took me a while to realise they are making them inclusive for the visually impaired. Something I hadn't thought of doing.
Of course if we don't admit there are better ways towards more equality we really can't achieve it can we?

I think if you isolate yourself and only gather opinions from those close to you or your own age then your view will be restricted.
I certainly get the impression that that applies to you trisher as you seem to be quite unaware of some of the advances made in decisions about transwomen.

No why should I think my age gives me any advantage over others who live in a very different world to the one I do. I think if you isolate yourself and only gather opinions from those close to you or your own age then your view will be restricted. It's why I constantly try to open myself up to younger people and those who are still active. It sometimes means that I am challenged and I wonder "What the hell is going on" But then on reflection I often find that a problem I had largely ignored is being dealt with.
Well yes. That’s exactly what (I assume) most of us do. So who was your point about left-leaning feminists aimed at, then?

Mollygo

^I think if you isolate yourself and only gather opinions from those close to you or your own age then your view will be restricted.^
I certainly get the impression that that applies to you trisher as you seem to be quite unaware of some of the advances made in decisions about transwomen.

Well I'm on here listening Mollygo and that's in spite of the condemnation, name calling, misrepresentation and other things done to try and silence me.
Would you like to explain those advances to me? I can always listen again.

Also listening

Was that a manifesto in your post, VS, or a use of the royal ‘we’?

I ask as it’s not clear who think you are speaking for, as it certainly doesn’t include me.

I don’t have to write it out again. If you don’t read the links to Fair Play for Women or posts like this

Janice Turner has written an excellent article for the Times "Women Won’t Be Silent as Our Rights are Stolen,
Or the full post I added earlier from the Times, what’s the point of writing it again.
You made the “if you isolate yourself comment” . . . I see that as what you are doing.

I’m not sure what you’re listening for VS.
You simply make We are posts with no apparent justification that anyone except you thinks so.

We believe women's rights are human rights, plain and simple. That means racial justice, LGBTQ rights, rights for disabled people and religious freedom. We will continue the fight against hatred however that's expressed

trisher

Doodledog

trisher

The problem with older feminists is that they sometimes fail to recognise that feminism has moved on. They are stuck in the 1970s and like many left leaning men fail to acknowledge or recognise their own privilege and the degree of discrimination suffered by some women and other minorities. It's a big mistake to think that age gives you any sort of real advantage when looking at how society is developing.

I should have known it would be a problem with us personally ??

I am not ‘stuck’ anywhere. I am older than I was - as are you, in case you hadn’t noticed! Like many on here, I have children and young family, and I work with young people-I’m not some kind of fossil who lives separated from the zeitgeist. I don’t think that age matters in this, but since you brought it up, I believe that you are more than 10 years older than me (I am 62). What makes you think you are different from the rest of us, and somehow still in touch??

Did you mean to go on to discuss men, or was that a cut and paste you forgot to edit? There have always been ‘brocialists’ (leftie men with old-fashioned ideas about women). In fact their heyday was probably the 70s when their type led the unions and much of the LP. My dad was one, and in the 70s (when I was a teenager ?) I seemed to spend most of my time arguing with him about his attitudes. My ideas are no more aligned with his than with any point in history- they are influenced by now, and by other women.

As for privilege- anyone and everyone who posts on here has a certain amount of privilege. Are only the poor and downtrodden allowed an opinion, or are you also suggesting that you alone are able to rise above your privilege (as well as your age) and, unlike the rest of us, think for yourself?

Talk about misguided superiority - your post is mindblowing in its arrogance.

No why should I think my age gives me any advantage over others who live in a very different world to the one I do. I think if you isolate yourself and only gather opinions from those close to you or your own age then your view will be restricted. It's why I constantly try to open myself up to younger people and those who are still active. It sometimes means that I am challenged and I wonder "What the hell is going on" But then on reflection I often find that a problem I had largely ignored is being dealt with.
I've had a few videos sent recently where the person starts with a long description of themselves, took me a while to realise they are making them inclusive for the visually impaired. Something I hadn't thought of doing.
Of course if we don't admit there are better ways towards more equality we really can't achieve it can we?

Hmm...my grandchildren are aged between 18-26. My Step granchildren are aged between 26-30. We "mix", on social occasions, family occasions etc, with them, their various partners and their mates.

They vary between college students, Uni students and workers.

We have just got back from a lunchtime bar-be-que with some of them, although not all.

Not one of the females agreed with your new all singin', all dancin' branch of new feminism, in promoting that biological men can now be women.

They thought it was nonsense, and reading the posts on MN (also younger, I assume), not very many agree with you.

So, I don't think it can be the case that it's the "older, old fashioned feminists" getting it wrong. ?

VioletSky

We believe women's rights are human rights, plain and simple. That means racial justice, LGBTQ rights, rights for disabled people and religious freedom. We will continue the fight against hatred however that's expressed

But that is not feminism.

This is the most recent definition of feminism:

"Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes. Feminism incorporates the position that societies prioritize the male point of view, and that women are treated unjustly within those societies". Wikipedia

Just because I don’t think we can change sex completely, does not mean I hate/dislike/am unkind to anyone who decides to become trans.

I had a good relationship with my second cousin who was born male, had a number of children, then decided to transition. I always spoke to my cousin in a kindly manner and we had a no arguments.

What upsets me is that free speech is being taken away from me. What is so wrong with me thinking someone can’t transition 100% and being ok with someone who thinks the complete opposite to me?

Why do I have to change my views to accommodate other people’s views that I don’t agree with?

Why can’t we all do our own thing?

I don't think it's a decision Nankate but I think your belief is fine and even protected as long as you don't discriminate which it doesn't sound like you are to me

No of course it doesn't NanKate and it's a pity that you or anyone else needs to say so.

Those privileged out of date feminists have been waving the red flag about Crispin Blunts behaviour for months now. Might have been worth paying attention to.

DiamondLily

trisher

Doodledog

trisher

The problem with older feminists is that they sometimes fail to recognise that feminism has moved on. They are stuck in the 1970s and like many left leaning men fail to acknowledge or recognise their own privilege and the degree of discrimination suffered by some women and other minorities. It's a big mistake to think that age gives you any sort of real advantage when looking at how society is developing.

I should have known it would be a problem with us personally ??

I am not ‘stuck’ anywhere. I am older than I was - as are you, in case you hadn’t noticed! Like many on here, I have children and young family, and I work with young people-I’m not some kind of fossil who lives separated from the zeitgeist. I don’t think that age matters in this, but since you brought it up, I believe that you are more than 10 years older than me (I am 62). What makes you think you are different from the rest of us, and somehow still in touch??

Did you mean to go on to discuss men, or was that a cut and paste you forgot to edit? There have always been ‘brocialists’ (leftie men with old-fashioned ideas about women). In fact their heyday was probably the 70s when their type led the unions and much of the LP. My dad was one, and in the 70s (when I was a teenager ?) I seemed to spend most of my time arguing with him about his attitudes. My ideas are no more aligned with his than with any point in history- they are influenced by now, and by other women.

As for privilege- anyone and everyone who posts on here has a certain amount of privilege. Are only the poor and downtrodden allowed an opinion, or are you also suggesting that you alone are able to rise above your privilege (as well as your age) and, unlike the rest of us, think for yourself?

Talk about misguided superiority - your post is mindblowing in its arrogance.

No why should I think my age gives me any advantage over others who live in a very different world to the one I do. I think if you isolate yourself and only gather opinions from those close to you or your own age then your view will be restricted. It's why I constantly try to open myself up to younger people and those who are still active. It sometimes means that I am challenged and I wonder "What the hell is going on" But then on reflection I often find that a problem I had largely ignored is being dealt with.
I've had a few videos sent recently where the person starts with a long description of themselves, took me a while to realise they are making them inclusive for the visually impaired. Something I hadn't thought of doing.
Of course if we don't admit there are better ways towards more equality we really can't achieve it can we?

Hmm...my grandchildren are aged between 18-26. My Step granchildren are aged between 26-30. We "mix", on social occasions, family occasions etc, with them, their various partners and their mates.

They vary between college students, Uni students and workers.

We have just got back from a lunchtime bar-be-que with some of them, although not all.

Not one of the females agreed with your new all singin', all dancin' branch of new feminism, in promoting that biological men can now be women.

They thought it was nonsense, and reading the posts on MN (also younger, I assume), not very many agree with you.

So, I don't think it can be the case that it's the "older, old fashioned feminists" getting it wrong. ?

Well I can see several things wrong here
Firstly as I wasn't there and you presumably presented what you imagine are my feminist views (which you completely oppose) I doubt the quality of the information.
Secondly I would imagine many of your relations come from the same background as yourself.
Thirdly knowing your views the young people were too polite to contradict and argue with you at a social occasion.

I didn't by the way say these ideas were solely supported by older old fashioned feminists I said it was harder for them to adjust to new ideas and to move forward.

VioletSky

We believe women's rights are human rights, plain and simple. That means racial justice, LGBTQ rights, rights for disabled people and religious freedom. We will continue the fight against hatred however that's expressed

Again, who has given you the right to speak for them?

I don't see anyone here arguing against human rights in any of their forms, much less expressing hatred. Do you?