The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

FarNorth

Doodledog that is terrible.
I certainly didn't mean that lesbians are immune from sexual assault.
I meant that no lesbian has to feel that she should include transwomen as possible partners.

I know, FN . It was terrible, yes. She was told that 'having sex with a dick is no different from sex with a strap-on', which I'm pretty sure is not remotely true.

Remember the Family Sex Show? The one that was anxious to promote "sexual awareness, body exploration, acceptance and inclusivity for all" to young children and their families? This is what they have to say about the word "woman":

And they use the word woman to continue to perpetrate misogyny or racism or transphobia, or all of the above. As a result, that word sort of feels tainted for me by other things that I want absolutely nothing to do with. I feel like identifying as a woman makes me complicit in these super shit things.

I'd wondered why racism had suddenly reared its head on this thread. Now it makes sense. But I now wonder how the statement above must make women of colour feel? They've had a hard enough time overcoming racism about the colour of their skin, their ethnicity and culture. Now they've got another fight on their hands because of their sex and are actually racist misogynists themselves if they believe themselves, or refer to themselves as a woman! Can anyone else see the insanity of this?

FarNorth

Doodledog asks
What, then, is a man who dresses up as a transwoman in order to commit a crime?
trisher says
He's a criminal

Indeed, and his crime is likely to be recorded as being committed by a female, and he is likely to be housed along with female prisoners if he chooses to say he's a woman.

All fine with you trisher?

If he's been living as a woman and has a GRC of course it should be recorded as a woman's crime.
If she is transgender she should be held in a transgender unit.
But actually I think it was meant to be just a man who had put a dress on. In which case he is a transvestite and a criminal.

The majority of men, males, trans or otherwise, do not commit sexual violence.

They don't harm anyone.

But, all sexual crime and violence, committed with a penis, involves biological men using their penis. Whether that sexual offence is against men or women is irrelevant. Both can be raped.

Biological women cannot rape another woman, or man, come to that, with a penis.

All, in legal terms, rape cases, are committed with a penis.

Women may commit other sexual crimes, but not with a penis. They haven't got one.

So, women, born with a vagina, are more at risk from biological men, however they identify, than they are from other biological women.

Well, we still haven't learnt what the difference is, trisha.

For the hundredth time - what is the difference between a woman, a transwoman and a man in a dress? Separate definitions aren't terribly helpful when it comes to situations such as recording crimes. If a man turns up in court 'presenting as' a woman, how is anyone to know whether he is a woman, a transwoman or a man in a dress/criminal?

The difference is gender dysphoria, havent we covered this?

DiamondLily

The majority of men, males, trans or otherwise, do not commit sexual violence.

They don't harm anyone.

But, all sexual crime and violence, committed with a penis, involves biological men using their penis. Whether that sexual offence is against men or women is irrelevant. Both can be raped.

Biological women cannot rape another woman, or man, come to that, with a penis.

All, in legal terms, rape cases, are committed with a penis.

Women may commit other sexual crimes, but not with a penis. They haven't got one.

So, women, born with a vagina, are more at risk from biological men, however they identify, than they are from other biological women.

And the biological men they are most at risk from are those they have a relationship with. Quite what identifying transwomen, women or a man in a dress has to do with that violence I have no idea, and neither I think do you. It's become a sort of obsession.

trisher

A man in a dress is a transvestite. Some see transvestites as being a stage on the way to a transwoman. Some just like to dress up. Some women like it.

Hmmm. Is that right? Atranswoman may never have an operation to remove male genitalia, but live as a woman, wearing dresses/skirts/clothing that is viewed as female clothing by society.

A transvestite does not claim to be a woman/live as a woman, they just like wearing clothing that is viewed as female clothing by society.

I am friends with a transwoman, they would never describe themselves as a transvestite. They live as a woman.

VioletSky

The difference is gender dysphoria, havent we covered this?

Yes I agree with that, in that a transvestite doesn't view themselves as a different sex (or gender) , they just like to dress in clothes that are viewed as traditionally female by society.

Whereas someone with gender dysphoria feels like they are not the sex (or gender) that they are seen as by society.

I am choosing my words very carefully here using the definitions below about the meanings of words:

"Gender is a collection of socially constructed ideas about human behaviour, actions and roles in relation to ideas of ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity'". This can be changed by an individual as they so wish because it is socially constructed

Sex refers to our biological traits, such as genitals, internal reproductive organs, chromosomes and hormones.

"Sex refers to our biological traits, such as genitals, internal reproductive organs, chromosomes and hormones." ...sorry that was not meant to be in bold, it was the second definition that I was using in my post above

Madgran you have to remember that scientists have already discovered 21 differences in 17 genes belonging to trans people and have theorised that the brain may also be washed with hormones at some stage in development.

Those are biological differences that are more complex than simple basic biology and there is a lot of room for more discovery according to researchers

Right, I understand that if someone has dysphoria it’s not the same as ‘dragging up’; but for the purposes of crime records, how can anyone tell? Are we supposed to take the word of a rapist that they ‘feel like’ a woman?

Basically the scientific and medical community agree that there is no cure for gender dysphoria and it is not a mental illness. The correct treatment is gender reassignment.

The consensus is, and you can confirm by looking up gender dysphoria on the NHS website, that although the exact cause is unknown, it is a combination of biological, environmental and cultural factors.

Studies of twins also suggest a genetic component

Whether or not a rapist or anyone who violates another has genuine gender dysphoria would be down to the medical community realistically.

Its a philosophically complex issue. If women were as strong as men and had a sexual appendage, would they use it to assert dominance over others? Who can say.

There are plenty of abusive women out there using abusive techniques to gain power and control over their chosen victims.

Nope in particular with regard to young people the consensus seems to be moving towards watchful waiting. Sone of the leading figures in transition surgery are saying we nedd to look at what is going on.

VioletSky

Madgran you have to remember that scientists have already discovered 21 differences in 17 genes belonging to trans people and have theorised that the brain may also be washed with hormones at some stage in development.

Those are biological differences that are more complex than simple basic biology and there is a lot of room for more discovery according to researchers

I don't understand why you are telling me "I have to remember" anything! (The phrase comes over unfortunately but I assume that was not your intention)

I am very well aware of various scientific research/discoveries on genes/hormones and impact on sexuality...partly because of experience within my own family and necessity to find out!!

I agreed with your reference to gender dysphoria and then made clear how I was using the two words in my comments so that there could be no misunderstanding. The two definitions are from the Brook Advisory Service for Young People!

Anyone who wants to look at the sex differences for violent sexual crimes can look at the figures supplied earlier in the thread.

I was just adding to what you said Madgran because I thought it was important additional information.

It is just the way I speak, if I was meaning to be rude I would just be rude in all honesty and be happy to admit to it

The correct treatment is not always gender reassignment or else there wouldn't be detransitioners, the numbers of which are growing steadily. Lauren Black who is a butch lesbian with severe dysphoria knows that she doesn't want to be a man, doesn't want to transition and has to find coping methods for her body dysmorphia. She is constantly tweeted by TRAs that she's a transman and should go for the transition. Some attack Ceri, her wife saying she should 'allow' Lauren to transition.

Still only two sexes, male and female, consistent across animals and plants that use sexual reproduction. It's the only reason for the two sexes, to continue to create progeny.

No one has to transition medically.

We shouldnt force them to do so by saying thst they cant be accepted in certain spaces until they do.

That may go a long way towards preventing mistakes.

If we fund research we may find the cause and be able to test those who believe they struggle with gender dysphoria at a future point.

I would support anyone who transitioned or detransitioned and what other people do or say is not a reflection on anyone who would do the same

Thats not why the mistakes are happening. At the moment it appears to predominantly impact female to male transitioners, so its not about access to spaces. Its about all sorts if things by the look of it homophobia, trauma etc.

I have personally seen that too galaxy and think you are probably right after reading your comment

I dont know if anyone who would later detransition actually had gender dysphoria in the first place

Madgran77

trisher

A man in a dress is a transvestite. Some see transvestites as being a stage on the way to a transwoman. Some just like to dress up. Some women like it.

Hmmm. Is that right? Atranswoman may never have an operation to remove male genitalia, but live as a woman, wearing dresses/skirts/clothing that is viewed as female clothing by society.

A transvestite does not claim to be a woman/live as a woman, they just like wearing clothing that is viewed as female clothing by society.

I am friends with a transwoman, they would never describe themselves as a transvestite. They live as a woman.

I think I said some would describe it as a stage, Eddie Izzard identified as a transvestite for many years, she now identifies as a transwoman.

The people most at danger of violence from strangers are other men. Women are most at danger of violence from a partner or relative.
Most rapes are committed by someone a woman knows
More men than women are murdered.
More women are murdered by someone close to them.
^Women are subjected to violence by police officers. From 2016-2021 over 800 instances of violence by police officers were reported by women. Only 43 cases were prosecuted.
All of these are true^

Oh oh-trisher (not some people) you are back saying that if it’s only a small number of attacks on AHF by males who are TW it makes it less important.
No one on GN as far as I know doesn't acknowledge any of the harm you mention e.g. that men get murdered, or that women get murdered by someone they know.

What I am saying is that if even a small number of AHF are harmed by a male purporting to be a female and using that misrepresentation to be in a position to commit that harm more easily it’s no less important and should not be dismissed they way you appear to do.

E.g.
TW in AHF safe spaces-why does a TW who looks male need to be in an AHF safe space?
Just to prove he can be, knowing it will be upsetting for some of those needing a refuge. (Please don’t drag in your tall, deep voiced, strong, muscular friend again.)

TW in female hospital wards, particularly psychiatric wards, where traumatised women suffering from androphobia are faced with a TW who is the sex they fear.

TW in female prisons where they perpetuate the crimes they were incarcerated for, or simply threaten to do so, causing physical or mental harm to AHF.

And while you’re not answering that (you can even use cis, since you find that a turn-on), how about an unequivocal answer to this.

Trans people must be able to understand when their rights are infringed, and to be able to take appropriate action.

So using your language trisher, can you now give an unequivocal answer to the following?

And when these trans rights conflict with or override the rights of cis women trisher, your position is . . . ?

I await your next obfuscation-or simply non answer.

Completely inappropriate to state that trisher finds anything a "turn on" in amongst the rest of that.... Whatever that is