The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

They they need to address the needs of all who use them dont they. As I have said numerous times toilets are easily solved.

As I have said numerous times toilets are easily solved.

Correct. It's just the tip of the iceberg.

trisher

Ilovecheese

Trisher I also knew how you felt in the park situation and would have felt the same, but it is just part of multi cultural life.

Thanks, but I do worry. If I could feel so unwelcome with a background of independence and strong women, how on earth can a woman from such a culture break free? And will they see the provision of safe spaces as an indication that the culture they were raised in is correct and women need to be kept seperate from men? It's a question of protecting women from harm but doing so in a positive way that makes them able to assert their right to go anywhere in a civilised society with little or no risk of harm. And I'm not sure we are getting it right just now.

You raise an interesting point there Trisher I am not sure though, that men invading the women only spaces is the way to break down the cultural barrier. I think it is more likely that Muslim women will lose even more freedom if they and their menfolk cannot be sure that spaces that are supposed to be single sex may include males.
I think it would be better to ensure that the spaces remain single sex. Try to show that women will be safe, encourage change, rather than impose different values.
Lavatories are going to remain a problem for parents and grandparents though, and without significant expenditure by either Local Authorities or businesses that will not change in a hurry.

Well someone had better tell M&S, Matalan and Primark because they've bowed to the TRAs pressure and made all their changing rooms uni sex. Another reason why online shopping is more and more popular and will add to the further decline of the high street
Yes but will trans et al care?
No, they’ll simply complain that now they aren’t allowed in any shops-because they’ve all closed!??

I think it is more likely that Muslim women will lose even more freedom if they and their menfolk cannot be sure that spaces that are supposed to be single sex may include males.
I think it would be better to ensure that the spaces remain single sex. Try to show that women will be safe, encourage change, rather than impose different values.

Exactly so Ilovecheese but I can't see a way forward, particularly for women, who, because of their religious and cultural beliefs are still being minimised by the TRAs and their allies. This very subject was discussed on thread #1 and little sympathy or empathy was shown to them:

And lets be accurate about this the Muslim religion does not require women to be seperate from men, anymore than it requires them to wear a full veil. As the guide said to me in Tunisia, the full veil is a cultural not a religious requirement and a modern Muslim state does not require women to wear it.
If a Muslim woman chooses to wear the hijab I would support her to do that freely and openly.
If she requires a private area to undress in she should be given that.
But public areas are an entirely different question

So, where do we go from there?

Women are asserting their rights or trying too, by insisting that safe spaces for women remain.

It's a sad fact of life that despite the right "to go anywhere in a civilised society with little or no risk of harm" that isn't the case and the removal of facilities for women only or those facilities being open to in tact males is increasing the risk that already exists.

I think you're right about the potential of Muslim women losing freedom if single sex spaces aren't retained Ilovecheese, and not just because of their menfolk but also because of their personal beliefs.

If she required a private area to undress in she should be given that and how is that going to work if TW are being given access to women's changing rooms?

Smileless2012

^If she required a private area to undress in she should be given that^ and how is that going to work if TW are being given access to women's changing rooms?

Perhaps one cubicle which is designated as female only (much like a disabled toilet). Personally I like the new gender neutral toilets which have their own facilities but open out into a public area, but I can see that that would be a problem for some. If there proved to be a huge number of women using the assigned female cubicle then another could be added. Mind I have no idea how this would be enforced.
Family changing cubicles should be available everywhere as well.

So have you changed your mind on the need for Muslim women, in particular, having a separate space in public areas trisher?

Chewbacca

^I think it is more likely that Muslim women will lose even more freedom if they and their^ menfolk cannot be sure that spaces that are supposed to be single sex may include males.
I think it would be better to ensure that the spaces remain single sex. Try to show that women will be safe, encourage change, rather than impose different values.

Exactly so Ilovecheese but I can't see a way forward, particularly for women, who, because of their religious and cultural beliefs are still being minimised by the TRAs and their allies. This very subject was discussed on thread #1 and little sympathy or empathy was shown to them:

And lets be accurate about this the Muslim religion does not require women to be seperate from men, anymore than it requires them to wear a full veil. As the guide said to me in Tunisia, the full veil is a cultural not a religious requirement and a modern Muslim state does not require women to wear it.
If a Muslim woman chooses to wear the hijab I would support her to do that freely and openly.
If she requires a private area to undress in she should be given that.
But public areas are an entirely different question

So, where do we go from there?

When there are Muslim women bravely daring to say that sex segregation has no part in Islam I think you are mistakenly regarding all Muslim women as agreeing with the sex segregation Chewbacca they don't
In 2015 a group of Muslim activists, politicians, and writers issued a Declaration of Reform which, among other things, supports women's rights and states in part, "We support equal rights for women, including equal rights to inheritance, witness, work, mobility, personal law, education, and employment. Men and women have equal rights in mosques, boards, leadership and all spheres of society. We reject sexism and misogyny."

I think you are mistakenly regarding all Muslim women as agreeing with the sex segregation Chewbacca

I don't think that I referred to all Muslim women in any part of my post did I? And whilst some Muslim women are happy that reform is slowly gaining traction, there is still a significant number who remain oppressed and subjugated by their patriarchal system and wouldn't dare to go against it by entering a mixed sexed changing area - some won't go to see a male doctor unless accompanied by a male relative.

But it was a good whatabout to be fair.

With toilets, the ideal would be single rooms, very like disabled loos.

I have to use them, and they are quite large - they would certainly be big enough to take parents, children and pushchairs. Many double up now as "baby changing rooms".

As they would be single spaces, it wouldn't matter who went in before or after anyone else.

Everyone would have privacy.

trisher

Doodledog

I have also said (twice) that I recognise the park scenario (and have also been asked to move from a carriage in a train so that men could remain uncontaminated by my presence), but maybe you missed that, trisher?

Doodledog I think you actually considered my post to be about Orthodox Jews (It wasn't) I had been told that Orthodox Jews practised segregation by someone, and I had posted that I had never had a problem with them. In fact although they do segregate and have some specific religious requirements I have noticed when the families involved are out (and they are obvious from their style of dress) the men quite often push buggies and walk with the children.
I didn't comment about your post because I didn't see any point in drawing attention to a mistake.

*0Doodledog I think you actually considered my post to be about Orthodox Jews (It wasn't) I had been told that Orthodox Jews practised segregation by someone, and I had posted that I had never had a problem with them. In fact although they do segregate and have some specific religious requirements I have noticed when the families involved are out (and they are obvious from their style of dress) the men quite often push buggies and walk with the children.
I didn't comment about your post because I didn't see any point in drawing attention to a mistake.*

I did think you’d said you lived in an area with a large Jewish population and that the park was there, yes. But the principle is the same. I have felt unwelcome because of groups of men who have clearly wanted to be separate from women for religious reasons, and it is not a good feeling. As I also said, though, I have friends who cover up, and say that it is out of choice. One in particular covers her hair when she has a ‘bad hair day’ and wears it in different styles at other times. They all say that depending on the situation it can be good to avoid the male gaze, and be listened to rather than looked at.

It’s not my way, and I don’t doubt that some women are treated badly in the name of ‘cultural norms’, but I wouldn’t dream of telling my friends to change their ways.

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread I wondered if you saw a parallel between the men (of whichever religion) who prevented you from using the park - not by law, which gives them no such right, but by making you feel uncomfortable - and the women who are made to feel uncomfortable because of men being in changing rooms, hospital wards or other spaces which have traditionally been female - only?

Oops! I’m in the car (passenger) and in and out of signal so that took several attempts to post, and it still came out wrong?.

Orthodox Jewish communities do practice various forms of segregation, particularly in religious ceremonies and places:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_Judaism

But, as with Islam, some people, and groups, are more progressive than others.

This could go wrong again, but I’ll give it a go.

Perhaps one cubicle which is designated as female only (much like a disabled toilet). Personally I like the new gender neutral toilets which have their own facilities but open out into a public area, but I can see that that would be a problem for some. If there proved to be a huge number of women using the assigned female cubicle then another could be added. Mind I have no idea how this would be enforced. Family changing cubicles should be available everywhere as well.
One cubicle for women to change in, in a women’s clothes store - the rest to be for men to use if they wish? Do you really see that as a viable option? Shops cater for their clientele, and in the case of Monsoon that is almost entirely women with a very occasional man.

I bought little clothes for my daughter in there in the past, but don’t remember her trying on - mostly I shopped without her and returned what wasn’t suitable. It’s too much hassle to dress and undress a young child on a shopping trip.

My husband shared the care, but he didn’t shop with them either - I really don’t think he would argue for a designated dad and daughter cubicle. When the children were old enough to choose their own clothes (older than Monsoon?) they were old enough to try them on on their own and come out to show us if they wanted to.

I honestly think that it would be a waste of space to build more cubicles and that women would shop online if they had to use unisex cubicles - specially if they are made out of curtains.

DiamondLily

Orthodox Jewish communities do practice various forms of segregation, particularly in religious ceremonies and places:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_Judaism

But, as with Islam, some people, and groups, are more progressive than others.

It was Jewish men - Hasidic, l think - who asked me to leave a train carriage and sit with the women in the next one.

Doodledog

DiamondLily

Orthodox Jewish communities do practice various forms of segregation, particularly in religious ceremonies and places:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_Judaism

But, as with Islam, some people, and groups, are more progressive than others.

It was Jewish men - Hasidic, l think - who asked me to leave a train carriage and sit with the women in the next one.

Yes, that branch, which I believe is the one where men and women have to dress and wear their hair in a certain way, (men wear the high hats and "pigtails") is ultra orthodox.

In Golders Green, in London, there are a lot of these communities.

It depends on the retail outlet trisher. If it's a store that predominantly caters for women then one cubicle wouldn't be enough as logically the majority of customers needing to use the facilities would be women.

If more women start shopping on line because they don't feel comfortable with as you say DD curtained unisex changing facilities, that will result in further closures of stores who employ mostly women; another impact on women.

Perhaps one cubicle which is designated as female only (much like a disabled toilet)

These transsectional (intersectional) feminists really are anti AHF aren’t they.

In a predominantly female shop for trying on clothes and they want ONE cubicle for AHF, many of whom prefer to try things on in private.

They would rather see (mostly) female jobs disappear to suit the possible appearance of someone who may or may not be a publicity stunt by a “shy 18 year old whose parents won’t let him try on dresses at home” than allow changing rooms for the majority because the majority are AHF or girls.

As I said there is the largest Yeshiva outside Israel (it is disputed with one in the US) in the area. And they do practise segregation and are easily identifiable. However I have never seen huge groups of them, perhaps Jewish history means they maintain a much lower presence and worry about their acceptance.
Asking you to leave a train carriage seems a bit much.

As for the question of a parrallel between my being uncomfortable in the park and women in hospitals, it was the sheer number of men present that worried me. If a single woman was placed on a ward filled with men then it would be similar. But a single man shouldn't intimidate a ward of women,

I think it’s unrealistic of transpeople to expect everyone to adjust things to suit them. They are a minority group, and as such they are the ones who will have to make the adjustments. That’s not to say that obstacles should be put in their way - just that minor inconveniences such as having to wait for a changing room will be par for the course.

To be honest, I doubt that the majority of transpeople would expect that we should all be put out to accommodate them. It’s always the TRAs and the ‘allies’ who shout the loudest.

Smileless2012

It depends on the retail outlet trisher. If it's a store that predominantly caters for women then one cubicle wouldn't be enough as logically the majority of customers needing to use the facilities would be women.

If more women start shopping on line because they don't feel comfortable with as you say DD curtained unisex changing facilities, that will result in further closures of stores who employ mostly women; another impact on women.

But the single female cubicle would be for women who for religious reasons can't associate with men. Other women might be prepared to use gender neutral facilities.

But many other women might not - that’s the point.

Given that Charlie has been outed as a barefaced liar, I think we can discount Charlie's version of events which did differ to other's accounts. This was the first complaint against Monsoon by a non-binary or trans person, so we might reasonably assume that Monsoon have handled the accommodating of such persons and even other men OK thus far. You don't have to have religious reasons to not want to share changing rooms separated only by curtains with men. I don't want men in there. I suspect the majority of women don't want men in these spaces too.

trisher Although you won't answer about whether you support or oppose the elimination of the sex based exemptions from the EA, your posts increasingly suggest that you do favour their removal. If that happens we might just as well get rid of the lot, men and women all in together, transwomen won't have to worry about passing anymore, but neither will they get the validation some seem to crave.

There was a guy on twitter who was proposing that vile female terfs should be consigned to a separate toilet and not allowed to mix with 'normal' people. Yes please, a women's only toilet, just what we wanted.