Oh Nicola! We’re not as green as we’re cabbage looking! ???????

And that volver is how some folks saw leaving the EU....and have been crucified ever since!

J52

Callistemon21

The Second Severn Crossing - who knew there was a train running underneath it?

I did, I went under the Severn as a child on my way to visit relatives in Cardiff. I was very excited at the thought of going under the water.

Oh, I've done that on the train a few times, I hated it. Sitting with clenched teeth and fists until we got through.

I love the Second Severn Crossing, sorry, the Prince of Wales Bridge!

J52

Callistemon21

The Second Severn Crossing - who knew there was a train running underneath it?

I did, I went under the Severn as a child on my way to visit relatives in Cardiff. I was very excited at the thought of going under the water.

Ps J52 there is a train attached to the underside of the Second Severn Crossing (bridge) which is for workmen - fascinating.

I never knew until I watched Michael Portillo!

Pantglas2

And that volver is how some folks saw leaving the EU....and have been crucified ever since!

For good reason.

Because Brexit was going to be the easiest thing ever, remember? EU membership was the cause of all our problems, leaving was going to solve all our problems, remember?

GrannyGravy13

Would you be happy for those explanations from Conservative voters who just do not want a Labour Government in Westminster Volver ?

With respect GG13, voting for a party of government is rather different from wanting your country to be independent

Volver with respect are you saying that you will vote for the SNP regardless of their record because they are the party offering a further referendum on independence ?

This is what stood out for me volver not that I disagree you understand, but let’s not pretend that your wish for affluence won’t be detrimental to many.

GrannyGravy13

Volver with respect are you saying that you will vote for the SNP regardless of their record because they are the party offering a further referendum on independence ?

I haven't said I will vote for anybody

Pantglas2

This is what stood out for me volver not that I disagree you understand, but let’s not pretend that your wish for affluence won’t be detrimental to many.

I think that's the exact opposite of what I said. ?

As one who wants a straightforward as opposed to an 'easy' life I just want 'independence' out of the picture. I want a Scottish government that works with the rest of the UK governments for the benefit of the Scottish people. The current Scottish government seems to want to be deliberately different regardless of the cost or potential detriment to their electorate.
The first Scottish governments were peopled by bright experienced MSPs. Now they're a lacklustre bunch more akin to town councillors at best and invisible at worst. Donald Dewar must be uneasy in his grave.

I thought Scotland began fighting for independence centuries ago though Aveline, so isn’t there always going to be discord between those who want it and those who don’t, regardless of the outcome of any referendums in the future?

Casdon I think everyone forgets that Mary Queen of Scots son inherited the English throne - so Scotland took over England hundreds of years ago! Actually Scottish history is complicated and Scotland as a country was never particularly coherent: lowland Scots and highland Scots were very different and then there were the border Scots!
Lowland Scots were, generally, more business like and practical and were more for the union than the Highlanders who followed the romantic notion of Bonnie Prince Charlie. Of course that's a massive simplification of more complex factors not least the colossal failure of the Darien scheme which left Scotland so bankrupt they signed up to the Act of Union.

I think everyone forgets that Mary Queen of Scots son inherited the English throne - so Scotland took over England hundreds of years ago!

Don't worry, Aveline, it's something we've never forgotten!!

I did feel very sorry for Mary, apparently she stayed in a Hall very near to where I lived (years later).

But am I right in thinking that since the Union independence has been on the agenda again since 19th century, I’m sure I read an article about it being a long running issue for Scotland?(I was looking at the history of Plaid Cymru in Wales at the time). I just can’t see everybody ever wanting the same solution, it’s exactly the same here in Wales.

I've just checked DH's lineage and apparently they were whisky distillers!

The Scottish Wars of Independence straddled the 13th and 14th centuries.

It's pretty much been going on ever since

The Scots have been fighting among themselves since time began. Inter clan fighting back then and inter clan fighting still going on -just different clans these days.

Aveline

Obviously you're not volver and I respect your point of view but there plainly are a lot of people who vote based on emotion rather than cold hard economics and experience of current Scottish government. It's the only explanation I can think of.

If you substitute "UK" for "Scottish", that also seems to be the reason some people are still wanting to vote for the UK Tory party, so you can't just think that only Scots can be, as you seem to think, sentimental rather than sensible when it comes to voting, Aveline.

Voting for independence is one thing and voting for whoever is in power at Westminster is another. UK governments change.
If Scotland (God forbid) voted for independence that would be it. Luckily we voted against it.

Voting for independence is one thing and voting for whoever is in power at Westminster is another.

I've been an independence supporter since long before Johnson's government. Since long before the Conservative government. Whoever is in power in Westminster now, I'll still be an independence supporter.

Some people are not independence supporters. And that's perfectly valid. But thinking we want independence because we don't like a particular shade of WM government is not correct.

Nor is thinking we're too wee ,too poor or too stupid to BE Independent ...there are countries far smaller and very much poorer than we are who are successfully Independent.
The SNP is the vehicle to get us over the line.after Independence there will be different SCOTTISH parties,not Scottish branches of English parties who work for WM. The people of Scotland are surely entitled to a democratic vote ..not the 600-59 we have at the moment .
The truth of the matter s England AKA WM NEEDS to hold onto us,just one of our export is 25% of ALL UK exports add in the renewables and the FACT our economy is growing stronger and faster than thers and you might have a clearer picture.Of course to see the picture you have to ditch thelies and misinformation we've been fed for over 300 years .Even the take on Darien is a biased one ,the Scheme was in fact sabotaged by WM as it ddn't suit them ...its all written in hstory ...but some just accept the same old rubbish they've been told

Scotland is as well represented at Westminster as any other part of the UK. We've had plenty of Scots in Senior positions in government over the years.
We're no more important than any other part of the union we've been in for centuries.

Listening to Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell on their podcast.

Some of their thoughts on independence.

Both thought that Scots living in other areas of the U.K. should have a vote in another referendum.

In fact if the United Kingdom was thinking of fracturing, they thought that every citizen if the U.K. should have a vote.

I would go along with both of those ideas. I’m all for enfranchisement.

Both of them are Scots living in another country and one of them thinks that its an insane idea to think Scotland and England are different countries. The other one said he wouldn't campaign for Better Together any more.

Did the people of Lithuania get a vote when Britain wanted to leave the EU?

Rory Stewart was broadcasting from his home in Scotland.

Re Lithuania - not a very good comparison.

The point is that Britain will be fundamentally changed if Scotland devised to break away, and it seems sensible to me for everyone involved which of course includes everyone in Britain to get a vote on the matter.