The loss of freedom of speech, of sidelining women and biology

I think feminists always thought that the crumbling points would be sport and the transition of young people, they were right. It looks like those two issues are on the way to being resolved. Just the rest now!

AussieNana I’m glad you see sport as a separate category even if males no longer have their ‘meat and two veg. A male remains a male regardless of what appellation they give themselves. So, if I’d asked for a female attendant on a hospital visit, I would expect a person who would not lie to me by claiming to be female. (Female is birth sex)
If they are dishonest about their sex, how can they be trusted about anything else?
You might be happy to be treated by someone dishonest, or you might even not have been in a situation where you would definitely wanted to treated or counselled by a female. Would your views about transwomen condemn every other female to to have no right to ask for female support?

A lighter interpretation of/on the appalling harassment that (mostly) women suffered in Bristol the other day.

twitter.com/beavybee/status/1538557187055927298?s=12

Who pays any attention to cowards hiding behind masks?

Difficult to ignore them though when their verbal and body language is at best intimidating. Like all bullies they're cowards. If the cause means that much, show your faces.

varian

Who pays any attention to cowards hiding behind masks?

People who are afraid of violence? People who would like to protest but don't feel equipped to deal with male-bodied thugs threatening them?

They might not take notice of the 'thinking' behind their message, but it wouldn't be unreasonable of them to be scared by their presence. I would be.

I don't think that this lot are trans activists so much as men who just don't like women. Shouting "go home and look after your children" doesn't sound quite right.
I think though, that the trans activists may have opened the door to this sort of behaviour, made the thugs feel safe to continue their bullying.

A lot of TRAs are men who don't like women, though. Men who do like women can understand why we don't always want them around, and why there is a need for single sex spaces. A quick straw poll of my husband, son and son-in-law shows that. Not a representative sample of all men, maybe; but all of them 'get it'.

A lot of TRAs are men who don't like women, though this absolutely! There are so many who revel in their chance to bully, intimidate and insult women under the pretence of caring about transpeople. It's quite telling that the chant always seems to be TWAW, transmen rarely get a mention. I wonder why? Couldn't be because they're females could it?

I have sons, a husband , brothers. They also fully respect the need for single sex spaces for women. They can't understand the wilful removal of words like breast feeding, mother, woman etc while retaining male terms. But then again they actually like the female sex.

I think the most appalling aspect of the harassment in Bristol was the lack of action by the police, especially later in the afternoon. After the women had made their way to a local pub, the black masked bullies/cowards stood outside shouting to the women to come outside and fight with them. There were other customers already inside the pub. The police who were present, as can be seen in lots of photos on Twitter, just stood and watched. The pub eventually closed, and the police said/admitted that they were unable to “protect” them. Kellie Jay Keen and others apparently left by the back door so as to avoid the masked activists. All I can say is I’m very glad I don’t live in Bristol, if that’s the standard of policing.
At least one of the activists has been identified on Twitter, he’s now closed his account, surprise surprise.

FarNorth

^I have tried to engage civilly.^

Me too, AussieNana.
You have clearly claimed that two opposite things are true.
You may believe they are not opposite, of course. I can't help that.

I have stated that I believe people who have transitioned to the other sex should be considered as now that sex.

That isnt double speak nor is it claiming 2 opposite things are true.

Mollygo

AussieNana I’m glad you see sport as a separate category even if males no longer have their ‘meat and two veg. A male remains a male regardless of what appellation they give themselves. So, if I’d asked for a female attendant on a hospital visit, I would expect a person who would not lie to me by claiming to be female. (Female is birth sex)
If they are dishonest about their sex, how can they be trusted about anything else?
You might be happy to be treated by someone dishonest, or you might even not have been in a situation where you would definitely wanted to treated or counselled by a female. Would your views about transwomen condemn every other female to to have no right to ask for female support?

well I have always said I see sport as separate issue for physical advantage reasons

I do not see people who have transitioned to be lying or dishonest when they present as the transitioned sex - that is the purpose of transitioning, to live as that sex.

and saying you can't trust them seems unfounded.

If you specifically do not want a transperson attending you then I think you should be specific in that and then the hospital can oblige if possible.

Doodledog

AussieNanna I think that many people agree with you that people who medically and surgically transition are a different category from those who simply 'identify' as the opposite sex based on 'feelings' about 'gender'.

Many of us are sympathetic to those who have surgically transitioned, and are supportive of their right to live as they choose. What we are unhappy with, however, is the concept of 'gender' and we worry that if things continue as they are, anyone who does not conform to stereotypes of acceptable behaviour for their sex group will be assumed to be 'in the wrong body'. We also worry about the fact that female spaces exist for a reason, and if any man who says he is a woman can enter them, there is no point in their being there in the first place. Then there is the issue of language, which is being changed to eradicate women as a sex class. Interestingly, the word 'man' is not being removed from official documents.

Sorry if I am wide of the mark here, but I get the impression that you are not a TRA, but someone who is sensitive to the needs of those who (for want of a better term) refer to as genuine transpeople. You are not alone in that on here, but it seems as though wires have got crossed somewhere.

Thank you for your reasoned response.

I have not said anywhere that I agree with the extreme language sort of things or that any man (or woman in vice versa) can just say they identify as the other sex and go where they like.(why I agreed with the possibility someone else floated of registration or ID type cards)

so wires certainly crossed if anyone saw that in my posts

If many people agree that medically and surgically transitioned people (what I loosely called fully transitioned before) are a separate category, then that is good.
We are on the same page about something.

some posters seem to be denying any recognition of any transition at all though- and that is where I am not on the same page.

I am afraid I dont agree with that. I dont think you can change sex whatever you may do to your body. This is not saying I dont recognise transition it means I dont believe transition means you have altered sex. This is considered a protected belief in the UK. Also I am not going to say I think that being allowed in female spaces has to be reliant on surgical procedure when many countries are backing away very quickly for that kind of treatment for young people.

I don't think that surgically transitioned people have changed sex either. I do, however, think that they are in a separate category from the 'identifiers'.

AN If you specifically do not want a transperson attending you then I think you should be specific in that and then the hospital can oblige if possible.
It should be sufficient for me to state that I want a female person attending me.
That way , the transwoman, who knows they are not female, regardless of whether they call themselves woman or not would, if they are honest not attend me.
I’m not anti trans, I simply feel that there are areas where women deserve their rights observed.

Words, such as 'female' and 'woman', are supposed to mean things.
We shouldn't have to make a speech to clarify what we mean by them.
It could soon become impossible to convey anything at all.

that's the problem FarNorth the words female and woman do mean things, they mean that a man cannot become either which must be why they appear to be being eradicated by trans activists.

What I don't understand is why, if these hostile and aggressive TRA's hate women, they want to seen as and treated as women?

The motivation of transactivists, whether they are trans themselves or not, is to remove women's rights by inserting themselves into everything that has, so far, been for women.

Some men are autogynephiles, AGPs, who get an erotic thrill from thinking of themselves as women.
No doubt, it's even more exciting for them if others, especially women, will go along with that idea.

FarNorth

Some men are autogynephiles, AGPs, who get an erotic thrill from thinking of themselves as women.
No doubt, it's even more exciting for them if others, especially women, will go along with that idea.

Have they not realised that being a woman is generally not very exciting at all?

not to mention bloody hard work Callistemon.

They fetishize make-up, skirts, stockings etc.
I don't think they're very interested in the non-exciting, hard work aspects.

Callistemon21

FarNorth

Some men are autogynephiles, AGPs, who get an erotic thrill from thinking of themselves as women.
No doubt, it's even more exciting for them if others, especially women, will go along with that idea.

Have they not realised that being a woman is generally not very exciting at all?

They just want the fetish side. Not the 20% lower pay, or the institutionalised sexism that women have to contend with. They don't get off on that side of 'feeling like a woman'.

Doodledog

Callistemon21

FarNorth

Some men are autogynephiles, AGPs, who get an erotic thrill from thinking of themselves as women.
No doubt, it's even more exciting for them if others, especially women, will go along with that idea.

Have they not realised that being a woman is generally not very exciting at all?

They just want the fetish side. Not the 20% lower pay, or the institutionalised sexism that women have to contend with. They don't get off on that side of 'feeling like a woman'.

Or periods, giving birth, menopause, those kind of womanly things?