Why is Johnson more popular than Starmer?

A friend who before retirement had been head of the English department at a large comprehensive marked GCSE papers from Eton. Sadly for him, being a believer in the State system, he found nothing wrong with of the papers but in fact found they were good.

My understanding is that there are so many applicants for schools like Eton that they can chose the brightest and that money doesn't necessarily buy a place

Doesn't it depend how much you pay and who you know?

I think, with royals it's an automatic pass. William wasn't considered that bright, Harry even less so, but both went there anyway.

What school, would turn them down?

GagaJo

Doesn't it depend how much you pay and who you know?

And if daddy went there?

Marmight

Keir Starmer has as much charisma as a sack stuffed with straw. Not even going to comment on the other one ….
Surely out of a population of over 67 million there’s someone out there who’s capable of doing the job?

Did anyone discuss if Cameron had charisma? Or May? I’m sure it’s only since Johnson became the darling of the electorate that people started discussing how much charisma a PM was required to have.

Interestingly an Australian friend has just said of their new Prime Minister "he comes across as very direct and straightforward, but with zero charisma".
So there is hope.
And Murdoch has been stuffed which is even better.

Charisma

a compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others

Anti-social personality disorder

A type of personality disorder in which an individual shows a strong disregard for norms, morals and the law, or the rights and safety of others. People with the disorder show a willingness to manipulate and exploit others. They also have a lack of empathy and may engage in impulsive, irresponsible behaviour to serve their own ends.

Has charisma become a synonym for ASPD?

Instead of ‘charisma’ try synonyms appeal, charm, presence, aura or personality. He doesn’t have any of those either IMO .

Is "charisma" a kind of fake or synthetic charm and attractiveness which fools some of the people some of the time?

varian

Is "charisma" a kind of fake or synthetic charm and attractiveness which fools some of the people some of the time?

I don't think so. I have a friend who has charisma in bucket loads. She can have the fiercest person eating out of her hands within a very short period. She was a very successful HT and loved and was loved by her staff. She is as straight as a die and completely honest. Nothing at all fake about her. I don't think you can fake charisma because the act can't be kept up 24/7.

I don't think Johnson is charismatic, he's too self absorbed, but I have no doubt he has charm when encountered in person.

Given the choice I'd prefer to spend time with Starmer rather than Johnson, though.

MaizieD

varian

Is "charisma" a kind of fake or synthetic charm and attractiveness which fools some of the people some of the time?

I don't think so. I have a friend who has charisma in bucket loads. She can have the fiercest person eating out of her hands within a very short period. She was a very successful HT and loved and was loved by her staff. She is as straight as a die and completely honest. Nothing at all fake about her. I don't think you can fake charisma because the act can't be kept up 24/7.

I don't think Johnson is charismatic, he's too self absorbed, but I have no doubt he has charm when encountered in person.

Given the choice I'd prefer to spend time with Starmer rather than Johnson, though.

Adolf Hitler was an unlikely leader but he still formed a connection with millions of German people, generating a level of charismatic attraction that was almost without parallel. It is a stark warning for the modern day, says historian Laurence Rees.

From what I've seen of Hitler's speeches he was a very compelling orator. Johnson isn't! Speeches were mostly where leaders connected with 'the people' in the 1930s. Good oratory must have counted a great deal towards his 'charisma'.

Can you see people being stirred by a Johnson stream of inanities? He is good at a three worder, mind you...I think that's what swings it, but it isn't charisma...

Speeches aren’t the only component of charisma though MaizieD. What Johnson seems to have is an ability to make his bumbling appeal so people see him as one of them, and can’t believe he would ever lie to them - or if he does and they know it’s a lie they forgive him because ‘he doesn’t mean it’.

I was thinking about the class element (and I know it's not supposed to apply these days, so sorry) but Johnson is upper class and they have always had a group of people who behaved badly and covered up their sins. There has also always been a group of working class people (the ones my mother told me not to mix with) who lived lives with fairly flexible morality and so perhaps he appeals to them. That's why Johnson managed to break the Red wall (along with Brexit). He's one of the lads. Starmer on the other hand is lower middle class and has lived life according to rules and boundaries, but he doesn't seem to appeal to the respectable middle class Tory voter no matter how hard he tries. Simplistic I know.

The only flaw with your argument is that Johnson isn’t upper class Glorianny.

Class consciousness in spades there Gloryanni. I’ve not heard lower middle class in years. Starner grew up in a council house. Dad an engineer (skilled craftsman if not engineer) mum a nurse till RA stopped her working. He didn’t know the difference between a barrister and a solicitor when studying law, which suggests he wasn’t brought up surrounded by lawyers. Not upper middle then

His law abiding, non showy persona probably means some of Johnson’s maverick supporters from all ‘classes’ will never support starmer. They’d rather have a chancer with a long standing reputation of infidelity and over indulgence in charge. It gives them the idea everyone except uptight people behaved like that

Speeches may not be the only component of charisma, but in the 1930s Hitler would not have had much else to expose him to the general public; unlike now when we have TV and social media which bring individuals more intimately into the lives of the general public. Hitler only had radio and the print media.

Johnson may not be 'upper class', but Eton and Oxford? I think many people perceive him as such. As they do Rees Mogg., who is also not upper class...

Boris is related to George 11 (Do you think he sees himself as a possible heir to the Queen?). Mind it was illegitimate www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJ2fHblikE&t=313s
Is that posh?

Just realised there's a German connection as well, now should we be really worried???

Johnson is worrying full stop

Result if progressive parties cooperated.

That’s the way to go!

Doodledog

I think that Starmer can come over as a bit humourless, whereas Johnson did HIGNFY and charmed the sort of people who forgive men bad behaviour if they are charming. He's persuaded a lot of people to refer to him as 'Boris', which is, I think, the first time a PM has been popularly known by his first name (even though his actual first name is Alexander).

Johnson pretends to be a man of the people, carefully using the names of those who interview him or phone in to ask questions, when a most basic analysis of what he actually says shows that he hasn't a clue about the lives of most of the public, and doesn't care about them at all. His dog, his babies, his high profile wife all add to the illusion that he is just a 'regular bloke' doing the best job he can in difficult circumstances.

Starmer is much more meticulous and circumspect. He is always shown in suits (unlike Johnson with his beanie hats and shorts) and he doesn't play to the gallery so blatantly in PMQs. He expects people to listen to the words, rather than just singing along to a series of slogans (which is Johnson's approach, and that of the last few Tory leaders before him). It's easier to follow Johnson, as it's all on the surface. Keir digs deeper, and engagement with that takes effort.

That is SO apposite. It is, in fact, at the root of this country's problems. Many people have next to no interest in politics and see it all as dull and boring, yet it ultimately pervades every aspect of our lives. This current crop of Tories are fully aware of that and are taking advantage of it.

It's due to a combination of a constant drip, drip, drip of vacuous TV 'entertainment', press and media dominated by ultra right wing moguls and poor state education.

This country (actually mainly England) is on a slow but steady slope of decline and the life I have enjoyed will not be the experience of the next generation and those beyond.

Sad times.

Rameses, I regret I have to agree with the last part of your last paragraph. Regret, because my generation enjoyed peace, prosperity and a real improvement in the lot of the ordinary person. I, too, see it all slipping away. When it does, it will be considerably more difficult to get back.
Cool user name, BTW.

Devorgilla

Rameses, I regret I have to agree with the last part of your last paragraph. Regret, because my generation enjoyed peace, prosperity and a real improvement in the lot of the ordinary person. I, too, see it all slipping away. When it does, it will be considerably more difficult to get back.
Cool user name, BTW.

Yes, sad times. It now seems you can be an MP, even a PM, and lie, break the law, duck and dive and manipulate your way through any attempt to get answers. What an example to set the young of today.

It's hard enough keeping offspring on the 'straight and narrow' in the odern world, without those at the top of the pyramid ignoring honesty and integrity with impunity.

Thanks for the comment about the user name! I thought maybe yours is some sort of anagram of 'gorilla'?

Rameses
^ It's hard enough keeping offspring on the 'straight and narrow' in the odern world, without those at the top of the pyramid ignoring honesty and integrity with impunity.^
Sadly that applies in the top of all pyramids not just politicians.
Think of the footballers and their fans, or pop stars or ‘celebrities’ setting a bad example much more noticeable to young people.