Speaking the truth about brexit

Where’s the banging your head against a brick wall emoji? ?

Brexit has caused a massive increase in beaurocracy which is stretching the civil service. Now Johnson wants to cut staffing by 20%

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/05/civil-service-cuts-will-leave-whitehall-unable-to-cope-with-brexit-workload

Jane71
I really don't know whether I'd vote the same now or not. We have been able to be quicker and more decisive helping in Ukraine than if we were still in the EU - and the other countries may have tried to do even less than they have so far if they could claim credit 'through' us.

Have any EU countries welcomed fewer Ukranian refugees per head of population than the UK?

We certainly acted independantly of the EU, but so did other nations each in different ways, Germany depends heavily on Russian energy and was very careful, others gave direct help quickly

The UK has been training Ukranian forces since 2014. Being in the EU didn't prevent that...

Careful Maizie, you are pointing out a truth there.

Airport chaos

Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary: Its Brexit
Jet 2 CEO Stephen Heapy: Its Brexit
Travel Journalist Simon Calder: Its Brexit

Tory MP Grant Shapps: Its not Brexit

Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.

exactly!

No, surely truth is absolute.

How it is interpreted is relative.

volver

No, surely truth is absolute.

How it is interpreted is relative.

That’s an interesting statement.

I would argue that “truth” is a human construct.

So truth in the 13th century was that Jerusalem was the centre of the world

Truth in the 14th century was that the earth is flat

Truth in the 15th century was that the king was chosen by god and had the right therefore to absolute rule

I won’t go on but “truth” changes over time.

Whitewavemark2 I think your examples are beliefs not truths

Facts, beliefs and truths are close relatives and open to interpretation.

Remember the internet dress several years ago which people saw in different colours when people posted what colours they saw they were posting the truth as they viewed it…

How anyone can continue to say Brexit was a good thing, is beyond me. It was a disaster, as we now see daily

lemsip

*Whose truth are you talking about? Truth unfortunately is generally relative.*

exactly!

That is such an unthought out answer. I can't believe you are repeating it.

You are saying that it is a truth that truth is relative.
That means you are saying your "truth" that truth is relative is a relative truth and may not be a truth at all.

If I say 2 + 2 = 4 you can tell me it isn't the truth and that you prefer 6 as the answer. Most people will just not bother with what you are saying. That is exactly what they should do with people who think their opinion is worth more than truth and facts.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 I think your examples are beliefs not truths

Facts, beliefs and truths are close relatives and open to interpretation.

Remember the internet dress several years ago which people saw in different colours when people posted what colours they saw they were posting the truth as they viewed it…

But those so called beliefs were thought of as truths.

For me it was the way that Brexit advocates were promoting their aim that convinced me to vote against. If you start a dispute with your neighbours and then start talking about cherry picking and walking away if you don’t get what you want, it’s going to end badly.

It has done just that, we did not get any concessions, nor did we walk away, even worse, all the EU regulations has been thrown out so nothing complies with their rules.

How supposedly intelligent politians failed to realise the morass they were creating is beyond me, or was it all just for the short term gain by a few.

They may have been thought of as truths by the people who espoused them but they weren't true WWM2. For all those things you mention we have now found out that none of them represented the world, in truth. Perhaps people in the 14th Century "knew" the world was flat, but Aristotle knew in the 4th century BC that is was a globe. There are absolute truths in the world.

Such as, Brexit has been bad for us. And people may say that they believe its true that Brexit has been good for us, but that is just not true.

I voted to leave.

I may be a strange one because it was nothing to do with free movement of people or goods. I was not happy with being part of The United States of Europe. I felt that the Governing body of the EU was seeking out more powers and that did not sit well with me,

My family home was in mainland Europe for over 10 years I am not anti Europe, its differing cultures or its peoples.

And that's been worth plunging us into economic catastrophe, hastening the break up of the UK, and having a useless and law breaking cabinet, has it?

volver

And that's been worth plunging us into economic catastrophe, hastening the break up of the UK, and having a useless and law breaking cabinet, has it?

Honestly at the moment I am not impressed with how the negotiations went/are continuing.

Free movement of people and goods in my opinion could resolve a lot of the issues regarding border control and the problems on the island of Ireland.

Let's not get into the Brexit argument again.

I know it was the worst political decision of my lifetime and you know it wasn't. Neither of us will change our minds.

volver

And that's been worth plunging us into economic catastrophe, hastening the break up of the UK, and having a useless and law breaking cabinet, has it?

You know, volver, the utter frustration of hearing people's reasons for voting leave (& I recall, GG13 you citing 'EU army' as your reason..not federation..) and seeing the catastrophic results just doesn't get any easier...

The UK destroyed, for what?

Whitewavemark2

volver

No, surely truth is absolute.

How it is interpreted is relative.

That’s an interesting statement.

I would argue that “truth” is a human construct.

So truth in the 13th century was that Jerusalem was the centre of the world

Truth in the 14th century was that the earth is flat

Truth in the 15th century was that the king was chosen by god and had the right therefore to absolute rule

I won’t go on but “truth” changes over time.

Oh dear, why get into this. We all know Brexit has not and could not be the success many believed it would be - if only because there were so many different beliefs as to what that would be.

If you believe that "truth is relative", you must also believe "there are no absolutes". Each of those beliefs is dependent on the other. Neither stands alone.

"There are no absolutes" means that phrase, being an absolute cannot be true. In the same way, the statement that "truth is relative" relies on the truth of that claim so it cannot be a truth.

It is a truth that I need oxygen, food and water to survive. I am not prepared to test the level of philosophical thinking available on this forum and prove it. But those using this as an argument may do so if you choose.

MaizieD I was not in GN at the time of the referendum.

I have gained nothing by being honest about my vote on the N & P threads when I did join.

As many of you have repeatedly pointed out, you voted for your AC and GC, I was on the fence during the run up to the vote, it was all five of our AC and their wives/partners deciding to vote leave that finally made it clear where to put my X

Yes I did not want to see U.K. armed forces under the control of Brussels. Which is entirely different to our Armed Forces co-operating under the NATO flag, participating in joint operations along with what we do best, training other Countries forces.

None of the above is relevant to this thread.

My opinion is our negotiations were poor, our negotiators were poor. Better thought out and prepared negotiations and compromises are needed.

God, this makes me angry. I have no time for people saying they voted for what they thought was right. It was wrong and ill thought out and misguided. Should have paid more attention.

"I voted for my grandchildren's future".

Messed that up then.