Independence in the Modern World. Wealthier, Happier, Fairer: Why Not Scotland?

...but also getting rid of half of the Tory MPs. So swings and roundabouts.

Yammy

volver

We have a plan to put the border from Cairnryan to Cockburnspath via Peebles, but its a secret. Don't tell anyone.?

I don't think the people in Galway and Dumfries or the people further east, will be pleased with that. You're giving England a swath of land that has been fought over far more than the rest of Scotland.

Not being picky, but it’s Galloway, Land of my Fathers! Or as my Grandmother said and wrote ‘Faither’. ?

This is good.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/unionists-wheel-out-same-old-propaganda-guns-against-new-case-for-independence-joyce-mcmillan-3734969

volver did you read the letters page!

What letters page? If you mean the comments I generally avoid them as they make GN look like a bastion of thoughtful debate.

Joyce McMillan is hardly a bastion of unbiased opinions herself!
Just because someone thinks differently from you it doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong.

Having just returned from a wonderful two weeks in Scotland, travelling widely from the Outer Hebrides to Glasgow, Fife and Aberdeenshire, and having spoken to a lot of people, including friends, relations, fellow holiday makers, hotel staff and random strangers, we were quite surprised to find a huge level of criticism directed at the Scottish government.

The only exception were two family members who are enthusiastic members of the SNP, but seem to assume that other Scots and Scottish residents think like them.

Varian I wonder who it is who votes for this National Party ,surely people who do know that voting for them is a mandate for Independence? After all thats been their core policy since Robert Bontine Cunninham-Graham founded the party after he left Keir Hardies Labour party ...and that wasn't yesterday.
The vote has risen every year the .The need for democracy is great .There is NO democracy in the UK there is a large majority of English Mp's who can outvote everyone else and do ,time after time after time .We haven't voted in a Tory government since 1955 ..that is NINETEEN FIFTY FIVE .Yet we've been landed with them for over half that time .
Ask yourself where will England keep its nukes when we go
Or where will they get their renewble energy
What about their plans for piping our water south
Lets not forget the vast amount of Scottish money they have squandered ...we had/have as much oil as Norway
We have begger all to show for it,foodbanks and poverty ,because starting with Thatcher they used us a s acah cow,even moving the sea border the night before devolution!
That of course was Labour ,who in all their wisdom have handed over power sharing to tories in the recent elections so vote Labour get tory ..get WM .
Theres only one way out of this and thats Independence ...oh and by the way The debt isn't ours ,the seceding nation doesn't pay the debt accrued by the nation they leave
BUT we own 8-10% OF EVERYTHING else .Scotland will flourish .Sadly there are still folk with stockholm syndrom whose allegiance lies with WM instead of with their own country .

varian

Having just returned from a wonderful two weeks in Scotland, travelling widely from the Outer Hebrides to Glasgow, Fife and Aberdeenshire, and having spoken to a lot of people, including friends, relations, fellow holiday makers, hotel staff and random strangers, we were quite surprised to find a huge level of criticism directed at the Scottish government.

The only exception were two family members who are enthusiastic members of the SNP, but seem to assume that other Scots and Scottish residents think like them.

49% of the population would vote SNP or Green in a Scottish election tomorrow. Which is nice.

docs.cdn.yougov.com/7famlmw3po/YouGov%20-%20The%20Times%20-%20Scotland%20May%202022.pdf

Hot air, pipe dreams and mair flatulence!!... Oh ..and don't forget the downright lies...
I am with Aveline on this.....
??????

49% of the population would vote SNP or Green in a Scottish election tomorrow. Which is nice.

?

Latest tracking shows it’s exactly the same as 2014…
No. 55 %. Yes . 45 %.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports-2022/06/14/where-do-scots-stand-independence-2022

Yes. That's right. A way to go yet.

Don’t think the link worked but the article is on the YouGov site . June 14 2022. Where do Scots stand on Independence in 2022

Link doesn't work.

Sorry, cross post!

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/06/14/where-do-scots-stand-independence-2022

I think this link works

Nicked this from Mumsnet .

Utterly gobsmacked by the sheer ignorance about Scotland and our desire for independence on display in this thread. It's no wonder we want to leave this toxic union. From the stupidity of calling the SNP the 'Scottish Nationalist Party' (Were you listening to Boris who routinely makes that deliberate mistake?) to the unbelievable complacency of thinking that we won't manage without England, you could not be more wrong. Since the last referendum, everything has changed. We have a Brexit that Scotland didn't vote for and a repulsive crop of Tories-in-name-only (actually UKIP in Tory clothing) lying to us on a daily basis. I'm English, have lived here for many years, and have never encountered anything like the rabid xenophobia currently on display in England.

Ask yourselves, is there any small country that has achieved independence in the last hundred years or so that has regretted it and wants to go back to being ruled by a bigger, more ignorant, more right wing neighbour? I don't think so. We are roughly the same size as Finland, with the same population, the same resources, especially renewables, the same potential. We have some of the best universities in the world. We'll be fine.

As for labelling all those who want independence as stupid?
Is there no end to England's hubris?

My Yes voting friends include economics experts, aerospace engineers, IT consultants, teachers, farmers, musicians, writers, actors, artists, gardeners and - yes - fishermen who were not fooled by Brexit. 58% of the population at the last poll. After independence, we'll be welcome to join EFTA - hopefully rejoining the EU after that. But in all honesty, EFTA would do for now. Our government recognises this fact and has already been making friends and allies in Scandinavia. Most of us would cheerfully cut up our British passports if we could have a Scottish one. We can spare the filthy rich who don't pay their taxes anyway, but the tragedy is that post Brexit our brightest and best young people are leaving to work overseas. Hopefully an independent Scotland can entice many of them to come back and build a better nation.
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Paddyann there is plenty of 'ignorance' on this thread but it's the sheer lack of knowledge of how the current Scottish government is actually seen by people in Scotland. They've had 15 years to gain our confidence that they could manage independence but every day more examples of crass ineptness come to light -and that's just information they actually don't withhold or produce redacted.

I've just been reading the Mumsnet thread that paddyann mentioned.

Full of absolutely xenophobic, ill informed nonsense. Stuff like Scots hate the English and the poor old Queen will have to give up Balmoral.

And here? More implications about how thick the independence supporters are, whinging about the SNP and how independence means an SNP-run state. It's not even worth arguing any more.

Does anyone remember the TV series Thirtysomething? I remember one scene where two of the characters were arguing and one of them said, "why don't you divorce me and marry someone perfect instead then?" Is the Scottish government perfect? No, of course not. Do they get things wrong? Certainly. Does Scotland have an increasingly divergent view from the rest of the UK about how countries should be run, verging towards social democracy rather that conservatism? Yes. Should we put up with a Union becoming ever more disastrous and xenophobic by the day, while we await perfection? Definitely not.

But those who want to can tell us all how naive and ignorant we are if it makes them feel better. I'm only having sensible conversations from now on, not patronising ones.

Mumsnet is a bit shocking on a few issues. I think its bdvome a bit of a haven for topics or speech that has been banned elsewhere

I'm out ,the WM worshippers have beaten me,they cant or wont look at FACTS!
Its the "but it makes me a better class " attitude,even though we know that an awful lot of Unionists are the marching ,foul mouthed,spitting on priests ,attacking young women because they carried a Saltire ,yelling NO SURRENDER mentality of the Ulster mobs ......
So Aveline if your high hopes of a Damehood dont happen I hope you can take solace in wrapping yourself in a Butchers apron....with all its foul connotations .

Crikey.

paddyann I don't know who think I am! Certainly not up for a DBE or ever expecting one. Re your 'butchers apron' comment : I have no idea what you're on about. Have a peaceful weekend.

Whether its in 18 months or 18 years, we're going to have another crack at independence sometime. If we do get independence, we're all going to have to live in Scotland together. I do get very annoyed with people who do Scotland down and act as though we are all stupid and can't run our own country. But personal attacks on people and unjustly accusing them of sectarianism are not right.

That's me out for now.