Independence in the Modern World. Wealthier, Happier, Fairer: Why Not Scotland?

^ Re your 'butchers apron' comment : I have no idea what you're on about.^

The Duke of Cumberland, the Butcher of Culloden, I think...

What has that to do with me? I reckon those comments say more about paddyann than me.
The majority of us up here just want to stay part of the UK. No need for such aggression.

Not sure why you bore the brunt of that outburst Aveline..very strange. I googled the term Butcher’s Apron because I also had no idea what it meant … Wiki states…
Butcher’s Apron is a pejorative term for the Union Jack common amongst Irish Republicans.

Disgusting.

Oh dear

‘When someone shows you who they are, believe them.’

A point I have wanted to make on a few of these threads, but can’t quite articulate, is about the difference in tone about the IndyRef debate in Scotland and England.

It’s a bit long, sorry, and forgive any typos, I’m on my phone and a bit short of time.

I had a job at the time that saw me travelling a lot in Scotland, meeting people from all sorts of communities, backgrounds and political views, as well as living in a Tory seat, and engaging with folk there during my everyday activities.

And the debate was everywhere, and nobody was shy about raising the issue. From older women on the bus in Edinburgh, to a 16 year old busker inGlasgow, or the middle aged white chair of the local Tory party (a friend of mine, it may surprise some to read) , from former mining villages to the Hebrides, everyone I encountered was talking about the pros and cons of independence. And whether they were for or agin, they were knowledgeable about the issues and they had cogent arguments for their views. The undecided were always willing to listen, I think, to both sides, and to research and learn. As a result the quality of the debate, irl, was high and based on what people genuinely thought was best for Scotland. (I say irl advisedly - see my earlier views on cyber-nats)

A couple of weeks before the vote, I travelled back to England to spend time with family and friends, and was shocked, and upset (my country etc etc) by both the poor quality of the debate there, and the tone of it. The media were not providing anything approaching balanced information, and all the political parties seemed determined to create a vitriolic, spiteful environment that was aimed at killing meaningful discussion

But more - worse to me - than that, there was constant misrepresentation of the debate and its actual and potential impact on Scotland. This was not about the impact of independence, although there was that too, it was a carefully crafted message - full of lies - that even daring to discuss the matter had riven Scotland from end to end, torn apart communities and families, while at the same time most people in Scotland couldn’t care less, didn’t understand the issues, and weren’t engaged at all- there was just a lot of noise from a few radicals. And all of this is a tone I can only describe as both sneering and fatuous.

I spoke to as many people as I could whilst I was there, accosting market traders, raising the issue at various communities out and social activities, making my family ask their friends, from Yorkshire to the south coast via East Anglia, and it was depressing how many people were taking what they were told at face value, and how it was influencing their views of Scotland. I suspect it continues to do so

Looking back, it feels a bit like a forerunner of the Brexit campaign led by England.

It would be shame, IMO, if Scots adopted the English method in any discussion about a future IndyRef.

Yeah I'm another one who'd never heard of the term "Butcher's Apron" just conjures up a bloody mess and I knew coming from that particular poster it would have some negative anti English connotation and surprise! surprise there it is as set out by Cathymac above,. So it seems there you are PaddyAnn firmly back in the mid 19th century letting out your stays and adjusting your crinoline so you can have yet another one of your anti English blasts. A modus operandi associated with ONLY you and no doubt you'll be along soon with "I don't hate the English just WESTMINSTER" yeah right! if that were the case you would cease digging up periods of history where the man or the woman in the street had very little representation and no say in the decisions the government of the day made Throughout your time on GN a whole range of digs from "The English never speak to their neighbours" or more reprehensibly following a homophobic attack in London, something along the lines of "Oh dear look what
s happening down south"

So you quote an Irish Republican ballad because as you've often let us know YOUR ancestors suffered during the Irish Famine. How Parochial you are to not realise that loads of English also had Irish ancestors who suffered the same fate, Liverpool from what I can understand is a very Irish city indeed. So many of us have some Irish blood, many of my school friends who I still see are only second generation English and whilst we would all agree that a united Ireland is something we would like to see, without the violence, because we do remember the mainland terrorist campaign, nobody I know is so immersed in anti English sentiment that they would come out with a quote about bloody butcher's aprons in the context you used it to Aveline and yes she's right those comments say a lot about you. You give me the impression from so many of your posts that you've never been across the border into England and your opinions regarding England and London in particular are supposition.

It's a fact that there are a MINORITY of Scots who really, really don't like the English they don't even have to utter a word in the case of my husband when he visited one of his closest friends a Scot may years ago, they were having a drink and an acquaintance of his wandered over, Scottish friend went to introduce them with a "this is my friend x from London" friend just turned on his heel, it seems my husband had instantly morphed into Oliver Cromwell and The Hammer of the Scots King combined without even uttering a word. Geoge Galloway recently took to Twitter to say that his daughter, who presumably has an English accent was verbally abused in a supermarket with a "f**k off back to England you English c***t allegedly by a well dressed middle aged woman

My personal view is that Scottish Independence is entirely the prerogative of the Scots to decide and I completely understand the desire by many of Scottish people wanting that or even not wanting that whatever the case may be from their personal point of view. It's a shame when you alone have to ramp up the vitriol, all of the other Scottish posters seem able to not to do that.

paddyanne

I really don't think that's the best way to encourage people to listen to your reasoning or to win people over to your way of thinking!

Hope you're OK, Aveline

Well said, Terribull

Callistemon21 I'm fine. Thank you for your concern. I'm just in after a special celebration lunch for DH's birthday. Not much point in contributing more to this thread other than to agree that Scottish independence is a very divisive issue!

Well said TerriBull.

Well said TerriBull

Hear hear TerriBull.

Hear hear TerriBull!

This is starting to resemble a pile on. I think we know now that lots of people agree with TerriBull, I'm not sure that this is a very good way to behave.

I’m sure TerriBull will not feel piled on by all the approval for her opinions which, as far as I know, she is still entitled to post. No one has quoted or cut and pasted parts of her post, merely agreed with what she posted.

I don't think it's TerriBull who's being piled on!

Yes, very funny. I wasn't talking about a pile-on on TerriBull.

I know I'm not the thread police, but I'm just expressing an opinion.

Cross Post Aveline

Mollygo

I’m sure TerriBull will not feel piled on by all the approval for her opinions which, as far as I know, she is still entitled to post. No one has quoted or cut and pasted parts of her post, merely agreed with what she posted.

She might be entitled to post her opinion but when it comes to a personal attack condemning a personal attack I'm not altogether sure who is in the right of it.

Personal attacks? But that seems to be fairly common on some threads.