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Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

Doodledog Tue 26-Jul-22 19:31:40

FarNorth

Yes.
She had also realised that she still had mental health problems to deal with, caused by her difficult earlier years, and that transitioning hadn't made them vanish.

Well it wouldn't make them vanish, would it?

I hesitate to say this, as I am not a psychologist, but I wonder whether it is MH problems that make people feel the need to start again in a new persona in the first place, and also what contributes to feelings of being 'the most marginalised group in society'?

Before anyone pounces, I am not saying that this is the case - as I say, I am entirely unqualified to do so - but simply suggesting it as a possibility - what do others think?

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 19:42:53

FarNorth

Have you any comment on the content of the article Glorianny?

I think so few people now realise that the Stonewall riots in New York after which this charity is named were led by trans people and queens and were not the property of, or even led by, gay men.
There's a little about these people and the discrimination white gay men practised here.
www.si.edu/stories/marsha-johnson-sylvia-rivera-and-history-pride-month

FarNorth Tue 26-Jul-22 19:44:53

I think it is likely to be the case for at least some people, although I am also not a psychologist.

Sinead Watson, @ImWatson91 on twitter, says similar things about her own experience of being a transman and then detransitioning.

She feels that there was very little interest in helping her decide if transitioning was really the right path for her. At the time, she was happy that things happened quite quickly and she went onto testosterone and also had a mastectomy.

FarNorth Tue 26-Jul-22 19:47:30

Have you any comment on the content of the article Glorianny?

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 21:04:03

I have absolutely no doubt that there will be people who regret transitioning just as there are people who regret all sorts of other things, including radical surgery to change the way they look. Perhaps as things develop there will be better ways of identifying such people but ultimately the decision to have treatment rests with the individual. I'd draw a parallel with abortion, which many women regret but still would take the same path. Does their regret mean they should have had more support? Or is it their body and their responsibility?

Iam64 Tue 26-Jul-22 21:08:25

I genuinely struggle to compare the issues around transition with abortion. The physical changes caused by transition are ever present. Many women wish they hadn’t been faced with the decision to have an abortion but the research I’ve seen, says most feel relieved they did.

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 21:10:02

I think it's quite a complex debate in terms of bodily autonomy and I think we need much better information to make those decisions. The evidence with regard to transitioning is not really very detailed, jone of the many concerns raised about the tavistock for example, issues with little long term follow up etc.

FarNorth Tue 26-Jul-22 21:11:23

Do you have any comment about the content of the article Glorianny?
The one by gay man Dennis Kavanagh.
Here is the link again.
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-death-of-stonewall

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 21:17:15

FarNorth

Do you have any comment about the content of the article Glorianny?
The one by gay man Dennis Kavanagh.
Here is the link again.
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-death-of-stonewall

I read it FarNorth and as I said some people seem to have little knowledge about the origins of the word and its links , and indeed reliance on trans individuals and queens, who were responsible for leading the Stonewall riots. It seems to me rather petty and insulting to then allege such people are taking over anything. It was their fight from the start and gay white men tried to keep them separate.

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 21:20:36

Glorianny

FarNorth

Do you have any comment about the content of the article Glorianny?
The one by gay man Dennis Kavanagh.
Here is the link again.
grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-death-of-stonewall

I read it FarNorth and as I said some people seem to have little knowledge about the origins of the word and its links , and indeed reliance on trans individuals and queens, who were responsible for leading the Stonewall riots. It seems to me rather petty and insulting to then allege such people are taking over anything. It was their fight from the start and gay white men tried to keep them separate.

Did you read about Marsha Johnston and Sylvia Rivera?

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 21:20:52

Crikey. I dont know how to respond to that really.

Mollygo Tue 26-Jul-22 21:39:56

What’s a non-male?

Glorianny Tue 26-Jul-22 21:42:23

Galaxy

Crikey. I dont know how to respond to that really.

Well you could just try to appreciate that the Stonewall riots long publicised as a gay protest had transgender individuals at the forefront. They then called themselves transvestites. And that some gay men even then tried to keep them separate. So there is nothing new about the split. The divide has existed for ages.

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 21:45:19

You do know that Marsha Johnston was really clear that they were miles away at the time.

Doodledog Tue 26-Jul-22 21:54:03

Glorianny

Galaxy

Crikey. I dont know how to respond to that really.

Well you could just try to appreciate that the Stonewall riots long publicised as a gay protest had transgender individuals at the forefront. They then called themselves transvestites. And that some gay men even then tried to keep them separate. So there is nothing new about the split. The divide has existed for ages.

What is your point here?

Stonewall, the UK gay pressure group was named after riots in the US that happened 20 years before it (the pressure group) was formed.

Whether or not people in the US at the time (1969 - 53 years ago!) felt that trans and gay people had common interests is, surely, neither here nor there? It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not the LP is changing its stance on 'gender' issues.

Galaxy Tue 26-Jul-22 21:54:45

That the riots had already started when they arrived. And that it was a lesbian who was at the forefront, she often gets written out of the accounts although that seems to have been rectified lately.

FarNorth Tue 26-Jul-22 23:06:23

Glorianny, Doodledog and Galaxy have put it very well.
Your comments seem to be unrelated to the article I posted.

The article, as you'll have read, is saying that young children are being thought to be trans because of their not conforming to current sex-role stereotypes, whereas it's possible they could be gay.
(Perhaps you've heard that Tavistock medics had an unpleasant 'joke' about how they 'trans the gay away'.)

As that article seemed to be what spurred you into the unrelated comments about gay white men, I hoped you might have a view on its actual content.

FarNorth Tue 26-Jul-22 23:09:05

Mollygo

What’s a non-male?

A clownfish, maybe.

Mollygo Tue 26-Jul-22 23:38:00

Non-male It was a term mentioned in the info about Marsha Johnston.

Rosie51 Tue 26-Jul-22 23:42:21

FarNorth for all those who want to validate transgender by comparison to clownfish grin

Doodledog Tue 26-Jul-22 23:52:05

Mollygo

Non-male It was a term mentioned in the info about Marsha Johnston.

I've come across non-male in relation to trans issues before - was it a Green Party faux pas? It was one of the things that tipped me from being broadly in the 'kind' camp into the 'are you serious??' one.

FarNorth Wed 27-Jul-22 00:31:53

It was used by the Green Party in 2016. I don't know if they still do it.
I'm not seeing it in the Marsha Johnson article.?

"Feminists have attacked an invitation to “non-men” by the young women’s arm of the Green Party.

“Women/non-men who are Young Greens can find and join our Facebook group 'Young Greens Women'”, they tweeted on 26 March."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/feminists-mock-green-party-young-women-s-invite-to-nonmen-a6987061.html

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 09:47:49

Doodledog

Glorianny

Galaxy

Crikey. I dont know how to respond to that really.

Well you could just try to appreciate that the Stonewall riots long publicised as a gay protest had transgender individuals at the forefront. They then called themselves transvestites. And that some gay men even then tried to keep them separate. So there is nothing new about the split. The divide has existed for ages.

What is your point here?

Stonewall, the UK gay pressure group was named after riots in the US that happened 20 years before it (the pressure group) was formed.

Whether or not people in the US at the time (1969 - 53 years ago!) felt that trans and gay people had common interests is, surely, neither here nor there? It certainly has nothing to do with whether or not the LP is changing its stance on 'gender' issues.

If you don't understand that there are gay people who subscribe to the philosophy that there are only two types of people -gay and straight and that other designations are just to do with conforming i.e trans people are gay people who are trying to conform to heterosexual society by changing their bodies, bisexual people are gays in denial, then you won't understand. It's this mistaken idea that all gay people think alike that makes this hard to understand, they don't.

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 09:51:42

Incidentally that has everything to do with the ideas that are currently being circulated and a lot to do with the history of trans and gay people. If you don't appreciate the history how can you possibly understand the problem?

Glorianny Wed 27-Jul-22 10:03:48

FarNorth

*Glorianny*, Doodledog and Galaxy have put it very well.
Your comments seem to be unrelated to the article I posted.

The article, as you'll have read, is saying that young children are being thought to be trans because of their not conforming to current sex-role stereotypes, whereas it's possible they could be gay.
(Perhaps you've heard that Tavistock medics had an unpleasant 'joke' about how they 'trans the gay away'.)

As that article seemed to be what spurred you into the unrelated comments about gay white men, I hoped you might have a view on its actual content.

As I have said FarNorth there is historically an ideology amongst the gay community that says trans people are just gay people who are trying to fit with het norms. I don't think all gay people think this, but I can see that someone who did could use the sex-role stereotypes to justify their thinking.
Of course it is possible they could be gay, it is equally possible they could be trans.
Perhaps the question we should be asking is why we are so comfortable looking at a child now and saying that child is gay and yet still so uncomfortable looking at another child and saying that child is trans? Even 50 years ago either would have been unacceptable, now only one is.
Until we can say it really doesn't matter sexual stereotypes will remain. Although many children will totally reject any concept projected onto them by adults anyway.

Medics always have awful jokes they are best ignored.