Gransnet forums

News & politics

Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 15:56:38

Doodledog

But you're in the other 'extremist camp' t Glorianna. Sauce for the goose and all that.

DaisyAnne, what do you see as evidence that the LP is open minded? Again, I would very much like to believe that, and if I've missed anything (or have screened it out because of my extremism wink) I'd be genuinely interested to know what it is.

The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.

Smileless2012 Tue 19-Jul-22 15:59:45

The fact that a woman is an adult female and a man is an adult male is indisputable and immutable. As is the fact that a man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man.

No amount of debate or discussion is ever going to change that

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:02:11

Where politicians come into things, however, are less about beliefs and science than about legislation. It is not a belief that men are being given access to women's prisons - it is a fact. It is a fact, not a belief, that men are winning at sport because they are entering in the women's classes, and so on.

Belief may come into it when some people believe that this is ok and others don't, but that is the whole point of political parties - to stand for one set of beliefs or another. They can't 'keep an open mind' forever, as that lets down both 'sides' of the debate, and we all need to know what we are voting for, which is where the thread came in.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:06:58

The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.
Cross-posted - apologies.

I would have thought so too, and as a LP member and supporter, I also want it to be the case, which is why I am disappointed and confused. I believe that Starmer knows perfectly well that only women have cervixes, for instance, but is afraid to say so as that risks annoying a vociferous and influential minority. But we are going round in circles and squaring none of them, as there is nothing concrete in your posts with which to agree or disagree.

Glorianny Tue 19-Jul-22 16:09:48

Doodledog

But you're in the other 'extremist camp' t Glorianna. Sauce for the goose and all that.

DaisyAnne, what do you see as evidence that the LP is open minded? Again, I would very much like to believe that, and if I've missed anything (or have screened it out because of my extremism wink) I'd be genuinely interested to know what it is.

I'm not in any "extremist" camp. I simply realise people are complicated, take them as they come and treat others with respect. It isn't complicated. It isn't extremist.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:11:51

That's how I see my own view, too. But yet we disagree. Funny that wink.

Smileless2012 Tue 19-Jul-22 16:13:52

We realise that people are complicated, we take them as they come and also treat others with respect too, so why are we extremists?

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 16:14:15

Smileless2012

The fact that a woman is an adult female and a man is an adult male is indisputable and immutable. As is the fact that a man cannot become a woman and a woman cannot become a man.

No amount of debate or discussion is ever going to change that

Obviously that is what you believe. Just in the way people believed the earth was flat - as the then scientific knowledge told them. I am sure they would have told you that their belief was indisputable and immutable too.

Glorianny Tue 19-Jul-22 16:20:56

Smileless2012

We realise that people are complicated, we take them as they come and also treat others with respect too, so why are we extremists?

I didn't use the word extremist Smileless2012 so I don't know best ask the originator- Doodledog I think. I just think you're all sadly obsessed and not living in the real world.

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 16:22:29

So why can the earth not be flat after all perhaps the science will change again.

Smileless2012 Tue 19-Jul-22 16:25:20

It was never scientifically proved that the earth was flat, but was scientifically proved that the earth is a sphere. Scientific knowledge shows what a man is and what a woman is. Can you provide a link to any scientific research that says differently DaisyAnne?

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:25:31

Are you seriously equating scientific research, as explained by Sir Robert Winston in FarNorth's link, with the beliefs of the Flat Earth Society? Yes, scientific knowledge evolves and is added to over time, but knowledge of gametes and their role in reproduction is accepted as fact.

Even if those decades of research turned out to all have a terrible mistake however, it is a fact that women are struggling to find places where they can undress and feel safe away from male-bodied individuals who have functional penises that can be used for rape, and who have male hormones that are responsible for sexual desire and aggression, and this is the area (and others like it) that we need politicians to address - the scientists will deal with the rest.

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it makes sense to me that they work within the tried and tested parameters of accepted knowledge that have stood the test of time.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:29:40

Glorianny

Smileless2012

We realise that people are complicated, we take them as they come and also treat others with respect too, so why are we extremists?

I didn't use the word extremist Smileless2012 so I don't know best ask the originator- Doodledog I think. I just think you're all sadly obsessed and not living in the real world.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it was DaisyAnne in her post of Mon 18-Jul-22 23:48:56.

The 'not in the real world trope is not an argument, is it? It is nonsensical, unless you have evidence of some other world where we could be living - the flat one, maybe?

(I'll leave the 'obsessed' comment hanging. I know it won't have gone unnoticed grin ).

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 16:31:56

The labour party arent weighing up the evidence they could have done that 10 years ago when women tried talking to them about it. They are on the whole looking ridiculous on this issue and I say that as a LP member. I would actually rather they avoided this conversation altogether as it tends to cause damage to any party or politician who tries, waves to Penny Mordaunt, Jo Swinson etc.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 16:33:24

Doodledog

*The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.*
Cross-posted - apologies.

I would have thought so too, and as a LP member and supporter, I also want it to be the case, which is why I am disappointed and confused. I believe that Starmer knows perfectly well that only women have cervixes, for instance, but is afraid to say so as that risks annoying a vociferous and influential minority. But we are going round in circles and squaring none of them, as there is nothing concrete in your posts with which to agree or disagree.

Back to your insistence on belief Doodledog, so nothing more for me to say.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:33:43

Yes, that would have been (and still would be) far more edifying.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 16:36:40

Galaxy

So why can the earth not be flat after all perhaps the science will change again.

"The mind that opens up to a new idea never returns to its original size."

- Albert Einstein.

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 16:36:47

It was DaisyAnne who brought 'extremes' into this thread.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 16:37:52

DaisyAnne

Doodledog

The LP is questioning and testing all the input they are getting, as far as I can see and based on my bias to want that to be the case. I am not an LP member or supporter. However, I would have thought that by nature and by learning, that is what Starmer would do.
Cross-posted - apologies.

I would have thought so too, and as a LP member and supporter, I also want it to be the case, which is why I am disappointed and confused. I believe that Starmer knows perfectly well that only women have cervixes, for instance, but is afraid to say so as that risks annoying a vociferous and influential minority. But we are going round in circles and squaring none of them, as there is nothing concrete in your posts with which to agree or disagree.

Back to your insistence on belief Doodledog, so nothing more for me to say.

Well what are the facts? Starmer is well educated. He is married to a woman. He is surrounded by both women and men in his work.

Does that lead you to even suspect that he won't know basic biology?

Facts on their own are useless - all they can do is guide us towards belief, as your comment about believing that 'by nature and learning that is what he would do' so clearly shows.

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 16:38:56

So we are extremists but you now seem to be open to the possibility that the earth is flat.

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 16:46:22

How do you suggest we form legislation on this basis. The science around climate change may alter so we shouldnt act? After all we need to keep an open mind.

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 16:47:52

There are a lot of statistics showing that male people can be dangerous to female people.
If you think that 'male' & 'female' are confusing terms and you don't know what they mean, that could be rephrased to say that there are a lot of statistics showing that people who were born with a penis can be dangerous to people who were born with a vulva.
For that reason, there have been laws made to attempt to protect the people born with a vulva.

Until a way is found to remove that danger completely, or almost completely, it is foolhardy to claim that some of the people who were born with a penis can be considered to be the same as the people who were born with a vulva.

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 16:53:18

"The mind that opens up to a new idea never returns to its original size."

- Albert Einstein.

I have opened my mind to the new idea that transwomen may be women and have reasoned that it is incorrect.

Do you suggest that Einstein completely accepted every new idea that came his/her/their way?
Do you completely accept every new idea that comes your way?

Elegran Tue 19-Jul-22 17:01:42

Adult males are humans of the type who have reproductive systems which potentially can contribute small gametes (sperm) to the forming of a new individual. They have a penis. and a scrotum containing a gland that makes and delivers those small gametes, and a prostate gland.

They have no uterus, cervix or vagina, (so they are not likely to suffer from uterine or cervical cancer, or need a cervical smear) They do not produce eggs, so have no menstrual cycle.

They can also be distinguished by their DNA, part of which consists of a pair of chromosomes of which one is of type X and the other type Y.

They have a third series of distinguishing features which develop at puberty, under the influence of hormones. Shoulders grow wider than females, hips narrower. Feet and hands become larger, the skull develops differently at the eye sockets and jawline, and the Adams apple becomes more prominent. Voices deepen and personalities become more assertive under the influence of testosterone. Testosterone also works on muscle tissue, causing males to develop muscle mass far more easily and effectively that females.

Adult males have been defined as "men" for millenia.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 17:10:09

FarNorth

It was DaisyAnne who brought 'extremes' into this thread.

I was talking about those with extremist views. Usually, a minority on any topic, the extremist exists at either end of the spectrum of thinking. Those in the centre will be far greater in number. This thread has shown that a "belief" driven minority will always attempt to stop alternative points of view.