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Is the LP changing its stance on 'gender'?

(394 Posts)
Doodledog Sun 17-Jul-22 23:17:30

I've thought for a while that the worm was turning when it comes to 'trans' issues. It is finally getting through that support for self-id is misogynistic and that gender-criticism is not the same as transphobia. Slowly but surely, court cases and policy changes are moving towards (to my mind) a more sensible approach.

Ironically for many women I know who are broadly left-wing, it has been the Tories who have caught on to this first, and it's interesting that at least two of the leadership candidates have mentioned 'gender politics' or 'culture wars' in their campaigns. Meanwhile, the LP has been woefully behind the times, with idiotic comments about men having cervixes and how transpeople are the most marginalised group in society.

But now it appears that they realise that they are behind the curve, and that many feminists and female-supporting men will struggle to vote for them - or maybe it's that they realise that it's becoming more acceptable to speak against the tyranny, and they are now saying what they really think. Either way (and I speak as a member of the LP) it's not a good look, but it's a better look than the craven adherence to Stonewall's No Debate mantra that we've seen so far.

This is from James Kirkup in the Spectator and for those who don't like links the text is at the bottom of the post.

It's probably obvious that I would be delighted if the LP did a U -turn on this. I'm not delighted at the display of what I see as cowardice that has held sway for so long, but it will be such a relief to be able to vote for the party whose policies are closer to my heart than any of the others without fearing that by doing so I am betraying my daughter and future generations of women.

What do others think? Am I being naively optimistic? Will the Lib Dems, the Greens and SNP rethink their ideas ahead of the GE? Will any of it make a difference to how you vote, or do you think that it isn't important compared to other issues?

Here is the text of the Spectator article:

Amid the noise of the Tory leadership fight, some significant comments in the papers could be missed today. Here’s the quote, from a Sunday Times interview with an intelligent, ambitious female politician in her forties:

“Biology is important. A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases."

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership?
She says she would ‘have a problem’ with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. ‘You don’t have to say to someone, “Shall I call you he or she?” – it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.’

Even by the standards of recent days, that’s pretty punchy. In particular that line on rejecting pronouns because ‘it’s pretty obvious’ strikes me as potentially controversial. I certainly know people and groups who would find that offensive. No candidate in the Tory race has thus been so outspoken on sex and gender. So are those quotes above yet another Conservative attempt to stoke a culture war?

That phrase has been used a lot recently, generally with disapproval and often by people keen to dismiss the concerns that some women raise about the impact of trans-rights policies on their rights and standing. And framing women’s concerns as the product of right-wing, social conservative politics makes them easier for lots of people in politics and the media to ignore and denigrate those concerns as marginal and ideological.

Of course, there’s nothing illegitimate about being either right-wing or socially conservative (I’m neither) but in much of our public discourse, those things are routinely denigrated, put beyond the pale of acceptability. So it’s significant that the author of those comments above cannot possibly be described as a right-winger or a social conservative. She is Rachel Reeves, Labour’s shadow chancellor.

The fact that Reeves, as smart and decent a politician as you’ll find in the Commons today, has said these things could have many implications. Could it strain Labour unity? It’s pretty hard to reconcile those comments with the position of some of her frontbench colleagues.

Could it reflect a new approach to trans issues from the Labour leadership? Reeves is today taking a much clearer line than Sir Keir Starmer, who has been more equivocal. I don’t know the answer to those questions, which can wait for another day.

My point here today is simpler. Rachel Reeves, the Labour shadow chancellor, has backed banning transwomen from women’s sport and excluding them from women’s spaces. And she’s rejected using gendered pronouns. By doing so, Reeves has provided yet more evidence to prove that concerns about trans rights policies and their impact on women’s rights are not right-wing or conservative. Nor are they marginal or ideological.
James Kirkup

Elegran Tue 19-Jul-22 17:11:12

Adult females are humans who have the reproductive systems which potentially can contribute large gametes (eggs) to the forming of that new individual.

They have ovaries to produce large gametes (eggs), and Fallopian tubes down which the eggs travel to the uterus, and, if they have been fertilized on their journey, attach themselves to the wall of that uterus, where they are protected and nourished until they have finished developing and are viable to survive separately. If the egg does not attach itself, it is ejected, as is the thickened lining of the uterus, as mentrual flow.

Females can carry a foetus to term and nourish it, and give birth to a new individual, and experience the regular cleansing of the womb lining as mentrual flow.

Females contribute one of their two X chromosomes (one of which they had recieved from their mother, the other from their father) to a new individual. They cannot contribute the Y chromosome which defines a male.

The equivalent section of their DNA contains two X chromosomes where male DNA has an X and a Y. At puberty hormones make their bodies rounder and softer than a male, with larger breasts and wider hips. The long leg bones join the pelvis at a different angle to males. The pelvis itself is wider, providing a wider passage for the new individual to be born into the world. Their skull is a different shape from a male's, at the eye sockets and the chinline, their adam's apple is smaller, their arms and legs shorter, their muscle mass less. Their voices are less deep, their head, face and body hair differently distributed.

Adult females have been defined as "women" for millenia.

Elegran Tue 19-Jul-22 17:16:31

My two previous posts are intended to set out the definitions of male and female, since so many people seem unable to differentiate them. I wonder whether prehistoric cavemen had the same problems?

Mollygo Tue 19-Jul-22 17:17:24

Elegran Excellently put.

"The mind that opens up to a new idea never returns to its original size."
“The mind that alters biological facts to suit its own purpose , shrinks, and never returns to its original size.” Alberta Zweistein

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 17:37:54

How could I have overlooked Alberta Zweistein Mollygo?

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 17:46:26

Elegran

My two previous posts are intended to set out the definitions of male and female, since so many people seem unable to differentiate them. I wonder whether prehistoric cavemen had the same problems?

Not according to Brian Bilston in his moving ode to Caveman love. It's a tragic tale, I'm sure you'll agree; but it shows that both the eponymous Caveman and Tim Next Door were able to differentiate, presumably with little scientific knowledge.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 17:58:57

Galaxy

How do you suggest we form legislation on this basis. The science around climate change may alter so we shouldnt act? After all we need to keep an open mind.

Really? Do you need to get down to that level on a day like today?

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 18:08:23

I am afraid it is the level you proposed Daisy Anne. It's not one I agree with obviously. It's not extremist to think the earth is not flat, it's not extremist to have concerns about climate change, it's not extremist to know you cant change sex and that women need some spaces (in very few areas of need) which are segregated by sex. These are not extremist positions.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 18:16:11

Agreed. And I'll add that it doesn't invalidate an argument to extrapolate belief from an understanding of facts. If there is no factual underpinning it becomes a matter of faith; but that's not what we are talking about here.

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 18:19:48

DaisyAnne how do you suggest society should proceed, in order not to be 'extreme'?

Do you believe people should have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in order to be considered trans?

Are you in favour of self-id of sex?

Or what?

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 18:32:23

Elegran

My two previous posts are intended to set out the definitions of male and female, since so many people seem unable to differentiate them. I wonder whether prehistoric cavemen had the same problems?

Who has a problem? It seems to be the extremists are the ones with the problem. Your form of extremism and those at the other end of the scale. Two small groups who insist society is run on their "beliefs". Societies were made to sacrifice their children based on beliefs. I for one would not trust such people if they ever get any form of power.

Sex is a spectrum moving from male to female. Some people are defined medically as 'intersex', i.e. between sexes. Some intersex people have both testes and ovaries. This has not always been widely known about. Now we would behave towards them as they would chose us to. How do you know that some of those, who define themselves as not of the sex they appear to be, don't have a strong sense of something we have not yet uncovered? You cannot.

Making your opinions into an act of belief to which you insist we must all agree is worrying to say the least. You may be right. Equally, you may be wrong; we simply do not know at this time but closed minds will never not help those having to deal with this.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 18:44:44

I don't think you will ever rid society of extremists FarNorth. They exist on every topic. I/we can only hope for a government that shares the views of the majority. Extremists are always a minority unless the government is extreme.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 18:46:07

Galaxy

I am afraid it is the level you proposed Daisy Anne. It's not one I agree with obviously. It's not extremist to think the earth is not flat, it's not extremist to have concerns about climate change, it's not extremist to know you cant change sex and that women need some spaces (in very few areas of need) which are segregated by sex. These are not extremist positions.

Just where did I "propose" this *Galaxy. Please quote before I report your insulting post.

Allsorts Tue 19-Jul-22 18:51:14

If you have a womb and breasts you are a woman, if you have testicles and a penis you’re a man. I don’t care what or how you want to twist that to fit in with your wishes. Certainly don’t want it at forefront of politics.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 18:53:08

And while you are about it Galaxy, please tell me where I said it was extremist to think the earth is not flat, or extremist to have concerns about climate change.

Iam64 Tue 19-Jul-22 18:55:38

Why is Galaxy’s post insulting? Genuine question. Why does it need reporting ?

I don’t see extremists, I see people struggling with complex situations. I realise if this is seen as two extreme sides, I’m with the so called terfs. I find that incredibly insulting, also untrue.

Elegran sets out clearly what is a man, what is female, a woman. It’s not that complicated. No one on any of these threads who would be labelled gender critical (me) dismisses the rights of trans people. What we share is the desire that the hard fought for rights of women to have safe spaces, to ge able to compete in sports with other women, not trans womene who went through puberty etc etc etc.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 19:16:04

Just where did I "propose" this *Galaxy. Please quote before I report your insulting post.

What? How has Galaxy insulted you (or anyone), and for what might you report her?

You have called people extremist, claim that we insist on having society run on their beliefs, are untrustworthy and something about sacrificing children, and you say Galaxy is insulting?

As for so-called 'Intersex' people - they are not so little known as you seem to think, but they have often said that they do not wish to be referred to as such. There is a lot of information out there, but this is from Amnesty's Website and is very straightforward:
The word “intersex” relates to physical sexual characteristics, and not to an internal sense of identity. An intersex person may also identify as trans, but they are separate things, because gender and sex are separate.

You appear to be arguing for arguing's sake, as apart from your own insulting comments you have not contributed an opinion, or joined in any discussion - in fact all you have done is derail the one that was going on.

FarNorth Tue 19-Jul-22 19:21:36

Exactly*Doodledog*.

If you have a coherent point to make DaisyAnne please make it.

Or is your point just "I find these threads boring, you are all silly, and I came on here to be annoying.'?

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 19:40:26

Thank you for an interesting discussion. You can all go back to agreeing with one another.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 19:49:35

We won't have much choice unless there is a coherent argument put from another perspective, will we?

Mollygo Tue 19-Jul-22 19:50:05

DaisyAnne

Thank you for an interesting discussion. You can all go back to agreeing with one another.

Is DaisyAnne your new name?

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 20:00:32

Oh and your information about those with a dsd is well inaccurate to say the least.
They are not between sexes and have begged not to be described as such.

Galaxy Tue 19-Jul-22 20:05:00

Crikey I will try to say it again. I think that believing the earth is flat is extremist, I think that climate change is not real is extremist, the reality of biological sex is however not extremist.

Smileless2012 Tue 19-Jul-22 20:08:14

I don't agree that this thread has done this but TRA's have "shown that a belief driven minority will always attempt to stop alternative points of view" DaisyAnne, even rational and scientifically proved ones.

DaisyAnne Tue 19-Jul-22 20:14:01

Some intersex people find the term offensive while others reclaim it. It is best used only by people born with variations in sex characteristics.

Just to rectify another attack. As I was refering to those born with the variations described above it was the correct use of the term. I would not like to upset anyone by using one they find offensive.

Doodledog Tue 19-Jul-22 20:17:15

There are really no attacks here.

Please quote what you see as attacks? I think you will find that they are simply differences of opinion, people defending themselves from frankly insulting accusations of extremism or requests for something other than these accusations that can actually be discussed. All things considered, I think this thread has remained remarkably polite.