Labour sacks shadow transport minister who backed strikes.

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Starmer is wise not to launch a written in stone manifesto two
years before a general election .

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Honestly Glorianny, what planet are the left on? Has there been privatisation in the NHS in Wales, where it is devolved? No. Will there be privatisation of the NHS in England? No. Will there be short term use of the private sector to bring waiting lists under control, manage the current elective procedures crisis and enable more staff to be employed to work in the NHS of the future. Yes, of course there will. Is this what the public want? Yes, of course it is. It’s not rocket science.

I think I'd want any party in government to think carefully about how to fund the NHS adequately so that it provides a better service than we have currently. If that means using private facilities tbh I don't have a problem with that I just want them to be used efficiently so people in pain are not waiting for a long time to have their hips etc replaced. I think most people would want that. We cannot just increase the supply of services in the NHS but we could be creative in how we use what we have.

The NHS was born because Ny Bevan experienced doctors in
South Wales mining valleys accepting a few pence a week from
workers to have treatment when needed , my family paid into
it.

Casdon

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Honestly Glorianny, what planet are the left on? Has there been privatisation in the NHS in Wales, where it is devolved? No. Will there be privatisation of the NHS in England? No. Will there be short term use of the private sector to bring waiting lists under control, manage the current elective procedures crisis and enable more staff to be employed to work in the NHS of the future. Yes, of course there will. Is this what the public want? Yes, of course it is. It’s not rocket science.

"We've just had the biggest legislative change in parliment in the last decade that has now become law that completes the replication of the American system the creation of public private entities integrated care systems that effectively denationalises the NHS that turns it into a set of 42 budgets which are going to be controlled by the private sector run like the rail franchise system they'll have their own negotiating postions there will be a loss of national bargaining for the staff and the budgets that will be given over will be fixed from which they can withdraw a profit and the main way they are going to do that is to screw down the turns and conditions of the staff and deny care to the patients. The private sector are for profit Casdon not patient care. It's naive to think the private health will be of any help to NHS when it's proved the opposite.

When private supposedly sector took over during the pandemic they did a mere fraction of what NHS do and essentially took a back seat.

It's a big mistake Starmer keeping silent about this Wes Streeting has been given a donation from a private health concern.

I’m not sure you’ve grasped what integrated care is about Grany, which is surprising as I believe you live in Wales, and we are way ahead of England in that respect? The Tories may want to privatise integrated care, but it’s an unattractive market for private companies, who want the quick bucks of elective care. As a model it is good. I don’t agree with privatisation of the NHS, neither does the Labour Party, neither does Keir Starmer, neither does Wes Streeting. You know that, you are twisting the position.

Read what I said, integrated care is privatisation spoken by a doctor.

I did, but I don’t think you read what I said Grany. I know what integrated care in the NHS means. By the way, if you’re quoting somebody else you need to say so, and name who said it.

Dr Bob Gill

Anniebach

Starmer is wise not to launch a written in stone manifesto two
years before a general election .

I agree Annie. I think anyone in his position would be wise not to do such a thing.

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

You seem to be saying there is only one way the Labour Party can act ... and that is your way, Glorianny. Do you not believe in democracy?

Role on PR. This scrapping will then be the death of the Labour Party as we know it; we will all be able to vote for the bit we want.

It will also be the death of the Conservative Party as we know it. We will then see what coalition the citizens of the country, often not the most interested in politics and certainly not the loudest voters, will decide our government looks like.

Casdon

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Honestly Glorianny, what planet are the left on? Has there been privatisation in the NHS in Wales, where it is devolved? No. Will there be privatisation of the NHS in England? No. Will there be short term use of the private sector to bring waiting lists under control, manage the current elective procedures crisis and enable more staff to be employed to work in the NHS of the future. Yes, of course there will. Is this what the public want? Yes, of course it is. It’s not rocket science.

Casdon many will tell you that the reason there has not been privatisation of NHS services in Wales is because of the direct opposition to this of Plaid Cymru. Unfortunately in England we don't have an alternative party voicing absolute opposition.

But isn't Starmer in favour of greater devolvement with changes to the House of Lords, etc?

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Honestly Glorianny, what planet are the left on? Has there been privatisation in the NHS in Wales, where it is devolved? No. Will there be privatisation of the NHS in England? No. Will there be short term use of the private sector to bring waiting lists under control, manage the current elective procedures crisis and enable more staff to be employed to work in the NHS of the future. Yes, of course there will. Is this what the public want? Yes, of course it is. It’s not rocket science.

Casdon many will tell you that the reason there has not been privatisation of NHS services in Wales is because of the direct opposition to this of Plaid Cymru. Unfortunately in England we don't have an alternative party voicing absolute opposition.

I live in Wales Glorianny. I worked in the NHS for over 40 years. have never ever heard anybody say that the NHS in Wales hasn’t been privatised due to any influence of Plaid Cymru. I would go as far as to say that theory is complete bunkum, one of my Dad’s favourite expressions.

gov.wales/the-welsh-nhs-is-not-for-sale

DaisyAnne

But isn't Starmer in favour of greater devolvement with changes to the House of Lords, etc?

I actually think everything about parliament needs changing. It’s a complete anachronism. Which was ok till we had a government devoid of any honesty and integrity that has exploited it for their own personal agenda.

Casdon

Glorianny

Casdon

Glorianny

foxie48

Glorianny if you go back to the 1940's it would also be true to say that Doctors didn't want the NHS but that certainly wouldn't be true of the doctors today, a lot of things change in 70 years. Surely the debate is more about how to fund the NHS adequately and what might or might not be a better model? When the NHS was set up it was generally thought that funding would decrease as the population became healthier, what was not anticipated was the huge increase in treatments, the growth in life expectancy and the ever increasing expectations of what can and should be treated. tbh I don't understand how the left of the LP got "the Tories to shift to the left and pretend they cared abut the NHS."

Because it's a left concept and one of the fears of the labour left now is that Starmer is about as committed to preventing privatisation as he has been to uniting the party. In other words Starmer and the left of centre Tories behave in similar ways. They praise the NHS because it wins them votes but work behind the scenes to dismantle it.
It could easily be funded . Remember how much money the government managed to splurge on ideas that didn't work during Covid?
Most doctors know the NHS gives the best care that's why they support it now. Unfortunately that isn't what Tory politicians support. Did you read about the private companies supported by Hunt in spite of them failing?

Honestly Glorianny, what planet are the left on? Has there been privatisation in the NHS in Wales, where it is devolved? No. Will there be privatisation of the NHS in England? No. Will there be short term use of the private sector to bring waiting lists under control, manage the current elective procedures crisis and enable more staff to be employed to work in the NHS of the future. Yes, of course there will. Is this what the public want? Yes, of course it is. It’s not rocket science.

Casdon many will tell you that the reason there has not been privatisation of NHS services in Wales is because of the direct opposition to this of Plaid Cymru. Unfortunately in England we don't have an alternative party voicing absolute opposition.

I live in Wales Glorianny. I worked in the NHS for over 40 years. have never ever heard anybody say that the NHS in Wales hasn’t been privatised due to any influence of Plaid Cymru. I would go as far as to say that theory is complete bunkum, one of my Dad’s favourite expressions.

Funny because there is loads of stuff on line of what the Welsh Labour government tried to do nation.cymru/news/labour-accused-of-hypocrisy-over-welsh-nhs-privatisation/

I provided the Welsh Government strategic position. It doesn’t get any clearer. Plaid Cymru try to make political capital, but they have an agreement with Welsh Government, in the last Senedd the agreement was with the LibDems.

Casdon

I provided the Welsh Government strategic position. It doesn’t get any clearer. Plaid Cymru try to make political capital, but they have an agreement with Welsh Government, in the last Senedd the agreement was with the LibDems.

So are you saying there was never any attempt to privatise dialysis or make NHS nurses become employed by private companies? Or an attempt to privatise pharmacies?
Or that it happened but it doesn't matter?

www.policyforum.labour.org.uk/commissions/commissions/health/addressing-pseudo-privatisation-in-the-nhs-expanding-specialised-medical-care-for-nhs-patients-with-kidney-problems?sort=date%3Aasc&triggerLogin=1
Here’s the explanation. Suffice to say it was not Welsh Government.

That takes me to a Labour site that is under maintenance so not much help.

Glorianny

That takes me to a Labour site that is under maintenance so not much help.

I expect that's Starmer's fault

Grany

Read what I said, integrated care is privatisation spoken by a doctor.

What was the quote and what was your comment Grany, please?

MaizieD

Glorianny

That takes me to a Labour site that is under maintenance so not much help.

I expect that's Starmer's fault

Naa can't be he's never maintained owt!