What would you like to see in the budget.

ronib

It’s the concept of debt being carried forward into the future which started with the aftermath of the Napoleonic war and obviously not the amount of debt incurred 400 years ago … of course that particular debt has gone. It’s only fairly recently that the debt from the 2nd World War has been repaid. Clearly the costs of the pandemic will be paid for in the years to come.

The 'cost' of the pandemic was raised by Quantitative Easing. That is when the Bank of England buys bonds, usually bonds newly issued by the Treasury, with money it has created and the money the Treasury receives is either spent by the government, or, in the case of the 2008 QE, is used to enlarge the commercial banks' reserve accounts, the accounts through which all interbank transactions are conducted. The reserves are very big now because the government promised to guarantee all bank deposits (i.e. customers' bank accounts) up to a maximum of £85,000 in the case of bank failure.

As the QE money was 'created' by the BoE it isn't owed to anyone. Technically the Treasury owes it to the BoE but as the BoE is owned by the state and the state can't owe itself money, it isn't going to be paid back at any time.

Some £900billion of QE has been created since 2008. It is counted in the government's borrowing figures, which makes the 'debt' look excessive, but it is a fictional loan, nothing to worry about. The rest of the government's 'debt' is money from the sale of bonds and National Savings accounts. These are savings and investments (notably investment by pension funds. People have been buying government bonds to provide an investment income for centuries.

They don't usually want their money back unless they are short of money, or, like the pension funds after the Truss/Kwarteng budget, which needed money to cover their financial commitments because the fall in sterling had caused some of their other, more risky investments to fall in value.

If the £900billion were to be taken off the 'debt' figure, the 'black hole' wouldn't look nearly as black...

As Dinahmo said, government debt didn't start with the Napoleopnic Wars, it had been in existence before that because that's how the country financed its wars...And we've had a good many wars to finance over the centuries...

Interestingly, in WW1, the government war bonds weren't selling very well so the BoE instructed one of their staff to buy a large quantity and put the money into his account for him to buy them with! An early instance of QE, I think.

Good post, MaizieD.
So nice to see a genuine exchange of views on GN and no bickering!
Just wanted to say my earlier comment about the NHS was not meant to knock the medical staff who, I am sure, do a brilliant job and work long hours. Neither did I mean to suggest a further major re-organisation is required. However, I do think procurement should be looked at. A knowledgeable friend (ex NHS) told me recently that the NHS pays top whack for anything it purchases as it is well known that they will not quibble over price. They are powerful purchasers and really should quibble over price, in everything.

Who is actually responsible for NHS procurement?

When I worked in the NHS 100 years ago 'procurement' was a complete hotch potch. Some was done by the Area team, some done at individual hospital level and I have no idea about some areas, such as drugs. Mind you, this was in the early days of the abolition of individual hospital boards, so it was bound to be a bit chaotic.

But when I look at the covid procurement it all seemed to be done at national level (crony contracts and all). That can't apply across the board, can it?

Maizie

Hope this explains who is responsible for procurement:

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/nhs-procurement#:~:text=DHSC%20is%20responsible%20for%20setting,ultimately%20accountable%20for%20NHS%20procurement.

It depends what people mean by procurement. The NHS doesn't just buy in drugs and equipment, but healthcare itself, so individual commissioning groups (now ICSs) are responsible for commissioning healthcare from GPs, trusts and some other providers.

I had a conversation with a pharmacist about the high price of drugs, specifically aspirin. We all know that aspirin costs pence if bought from a supermarket, but appear on the NHS price list as costing over a pound.

Apparently, the NHS pays pence for aspirin too, but the bean counters include the cost of getting aspirin from prescription to patient, when they include it on the price list. The admin costs of prescribing are divided between all the drugs the NHS provides and appear high for aspirin because the drug itself is cheap.

Many people (like me) are prescribed aspirin, but apparently it wouldn't save very much if I bought my own because I already have a number of items on repeat prescription. If nearly everybody were to buy their own aspirin, all that would happen is that the costs of providing prescriptions would be divided amongst all the other prescription items. Hope that makes sense.

PS. The NHS does negotiate prices with drug companies, especially the high cost non-generic drugs. It was one of Trump's complaints that Pfizer sold its drugs more cheaply to the NHS than it does to American consumers.

What do you know about the cost of insulin, growstuff?. Because there's been some publicity (twitter?) about it recently; it is apparently extremely cheap to manufacture but in the US it's charged at a massively higher price. I just wondered what it's like here.

And thanks for finding that link for me. I was being too idle to look it up myself...

MaizieD

What do you know about the cost of insulin, growstuff?. Because there's been some publicity (twitter?) about it recently; it is apparently extremely cheap to manufacture but in the US it's charged at a massively higher price. I just wondered what it's like here.

And thanks for finding that link for me. I was being too idle to look it up myself...

I pay (in France) about 90 euros for two small flacons of caninsulin for my dog. They last about 3 weeks. The vet told me that it would be cheaper for me to buy human insulin but that I would have to get it from the pharmacy. A box of needles on top of that although he doesn't charge me for the actual consultation whenever she has a blood test.

Insulin in the US.

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/01/insulin-diabetes-drugs-rationing

ronib

Daisy Anne
Essential services from taxes are:
Defence
Education until 18
Nhs although with revised parameters
Transport
Housing

Non essential
Bureaucractic costs including allowances given to mps and members of the House of Lords. Halve pensions to former prime ministers. Public service to serve the public. Rethink refurbishment of palaces and the Palace of Westminster out of taxes.

Reduce foreign aid. Our more affluent allies could step in to bridge the gap?

Stop spending on vanity projects

Other measures
Two or five year work visas for skilled and required workers
Try to find new trading partners
Ensure London as a financial centre

Thank you for sharing ronib.

volver

ronib

volver

Foreign aid isn't like putting 50p in the collection box when you feel like it. Foreign aid is commitments and contracts.

I suppose you could try saying that you've not going to pay your car tax this year but the well off bloke down the road should do it for you. That might work.

What is our budgetary deficit 3trillion? Yes why not get the richer countries to contribute more? Commitments and contracts to China and India?

Aye, I'm sure you're right.

Some days it's not worth arguing. This is one of those days.

I had reached the same conclusion. ronib is, of course, entitled to his/hers/their opinion but I strongly doubt his/hers/their personal "truths".

Austerity has only one use. That is to shrink the state. You cannot shrink the state and grow the economy. You need, as a minimum, healthy, well-educated workers to do that. Both of these are likely to be impossible if what we have been told to expect is what we get.

Got this today from the Scottish Greens:

I am delighted to tell you that the Scottish Child Payment has been expanded to £25 a week and extended to include eligible children and young people up to age 16.

When we entered government, the payment was £10 a week, but we have worked with our Scottish Government colleague to increase it by 150% and expand the number of eligible young people to 400,000.

This is putting money into the pockets of families and making a difference to parents and children all over Scotland. Whether it is extra money for essentials like food and nappies or allowing them to go for days out that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to, this payment is an important part of our work to support families in Scotland.

We have also mitigated the cruel benefit cap, scrapped the requirement for demeaning benefits assessments in the Adult Disability Payment, which replaces the cruel and dehumanising Personal Independence Payment, and ensured that the benefits we control are in line with inflation.

As well as these vital changes to benefits, we have delivered free bus travel for everyone under 22 while extending free school meals and ensuring that government contracts pay at least the real living wage.

With rising inflation, energy costs and Tory cuts, the action that we are taking to challenge poverty could not be more urgent.

Many thanks

Maggie Chapman MSP
Social security spokesperson, Scottish Greens

If the Scottish Government can do these things from a limited budget and few powers over taxation, why can the Westminster Government not do the same or better? Is it a case of where there's a will there's a way?

Young working families in England with two children under the age of three have childcare costs of £2500 or more per month depending on hours worked. I think £4K annually for 2 children is refunded by Inland Revenue as well as monthly child benefit being paid.

MaizieD

What do you know about the cost of insulin, growstuff?. Because there's been some publicity (twitter?) about it recently; it is apparently extremely cheap to manufacture but in the US it's charged at a massively higher price. I just wondered what it's like here.

And thanks for finding that link for me. I was being too idle to look it up myself...

I don't know much specifically about insulin prices in the UK. T1 diabetics in the UK get it free, as well as all other medications. I'm not sure how much it costs the NHS. In the US, having insulin-dependent diabetes is a death sentence, if you're poor.

Here's a link to costs in other countries:

worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-insulin-by-country

In 2018, the average US manufacturer price per standard unit across all insulins was $98.70, compared to $6.94 in Australia, $12.00 in Canada, and $7.52 in the UK.

pharmanewsintel.com/news/insulin-prices-8x-higher-in-the-us-compared-to-similar-nations

ronib

Young working families in England with two children under the age of three have childcare costs of £2500 or more per month depending on hours worked. I think £4K annually for 2 children is refunded by Inland Revenue as well as monthly child benefit being paid.

Why so complicated? Does this government not want female participation in the workforce? I was pleased to see that Sunak has referred Norway on a couple of occasions. They certainly lead the way in childcare. Their philosophy is that children are an integral part of society. I get the feeling this view is not shared across this country.

A windfall tax to be imposed and MPs expenses reduced along with the subsidies on their fine dining in Parliament. Also join the single market

Yes. Subsidies for MPs food shoukd be scrapped. Its not so much the money as the optics (latest terminology). Pay market price or take a packed lunch which can be prepared in your fully expensed second home. Simple.

I read that councils are very likely to become bankrupt if the cuts are severe or indeed at all.

What happens to care etc then?

In 12 years the Tories have successfully completely ruined this country.

I've only just realised how much money it costs to keep the Government, Opposition, House of Lords, and all their staff in wages, luxury cars, flights, hotel rooms, banquets etc. We could save a lot of money by getting rid of the lot of them and starting a new system

Daisy Anne - I agree we are moving in a hopeful direction to rejoin the EU. More and more people are saying Brexit was a mistake, even in The Telegraph. The problem is the main Parties have too much baggage on it: the Tories having been made into the Party of Brexit by Johnson and the loony Right and Labour with its Left wing suspicions a la Benn and Corbyn of the EEC as a capitalist conspiracy not to mention Starmer's fear of the Northern working class Brexit vote. Still, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I’d love to see :-

Tax thresholds raised
Inflation increases for all public sector workers
Overhaul of our NHS
State Pensions commitments to at least inflation increases
Removal of MPs expenses and subsidies
Higher taxes on cigarettes and alcohol
Increased taxation over £200,000
Overhaul of care system

And on and on …..

An obvious win would be to enable asylum seekers to work while their cases are reviewed (at a snail's pace by the hopeless Home Office) so they can contribute to the economy AND to increase immigration to fill jobs (from fruit picking to consultant surgery) that can't be readily filled by UK nationals because of an aging population, lack of skills, etc. It would of course be necessary for the Tories to abandon their ridiculously low target of tens of thousands of immigrants.

I’m concerned by rumours that the government is looking at introducing means testing for disability benefits like PIP/DLA/AA and carers allowance. I feel as though disability benefits are at the forefront of any round of cuts and are considered the low hanging fruit. I know it’s been leaked that pensions and benefits will rise by inflation, but this has to be paid for somehow and like everything else, the devil is in the detail. Mel Stride was asked about it in parliament last week and would not confirm or deny, saying he couldn’t comment on what may or may not appear in the budget.

Like others, I would also like to see House of Lords attendance allowances reduced along with in house subsidies on food and drink. Would be nice if the annual payments to ex PM’s were either stopped after a period of time or reduced. About time MP’s shouldered some of the ‘burden’ as they possess the ‘broader shoulders’ the government are looking for.

I would like them to keep the triple lock. Many OAPs are struggling. However. I do think that people who carry on working past the age of 60 should pay NI in relation to earnings.

dizzygran

I would like them to keep the triple lock. Many OAPs are struggling. However. I do think that people who carry on working past the age of 60 should pay NI in relation to earnings.

I remember my late husband was an agency worker on a fixed term contract with BT when he reached retirement age. He was flabbergasted when he received his first payslip after his state pension kicked in - he hadn’t realised that NI contributions would stop. I too, think it should carry on if people choose to work after receipt of state pension. I assume it stops because it’s not possible to accumulate any more pension entitlement, but continued contributions would perhaps make it more sustainable.

Cossy

I’d love to see :-

Tax thresholds raised
Inflation increases for all public sector workers
Overhaul of our NHS
State Pensions commitments to at least inflation increases
Removal of MPs expenses and subsidies
Higher taxes on cigarettes and alcohol
Increased taxation over £200,000
Overhaul of care system

And on and on …..

Increase the personal allowance to take more of the low paid out of taxation

Reduce the ceiling for the lower rate band from £50, 270 to say £45,000

Reduce the higher rate band to £100,000 at 40%

Reduce the higher rate band to £150,000 at 45%

Introduce 50% on all income over £150,000

Don't forget that landlords still get tax relief on mortgage interest at the basic rate

Pension premiums still obtain tax relief at the marginal rate of the tax payer.