Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

growstuff

But foxie How many NHS hospitals have spare capacity, when NHS hospitals' waiting lists are getting longer and longer?

I don't agree with you.

It's true that there are increasingly expensive and ground-breaking treatments available, but I believe they should be available for all with no queue jumping. And I believe we all need to accept that if we want them, we need to pay for them through the taxation system.

Exactly, you have proved my point. Few NHS hospitals have spare capacity so the 49% of private usage is a complete red herring. Most hospitals do not do private work, the few that do are generally using extra capacity of expensive diagnostics ie The Brompton. If this generates extra money for their NHS work, well that's good for everyone. It is not queue jumping unless private patients use a private diagnostics test to jump the NHS list and tbh I haven't seen any evidence for this. If you have, please share it. I've had to have several cardiac diagnostic tests in the last three years, all done promptly by the NHS, it was the in hospital treatment that I've had to wait for. Friends have had MRI's and scans, all done in good time but the hip /knee replacements etc that they need are what they are waiting for. Actually Growstuff I think we want the same for the NHS, it's just I am prepared to accept that the 2022 NHS is a very different organisation to the one set up in 1948 and needs to change. It is not all about money but as I keep saying, I am very happy to pay more for my treatment if it improves the service for anyone who is less well off than I am be it through taxation or by some other method.

The local hospital where I used to work up the road does not charge for car parking in it’s huge car park AussieG. I’m very proud of that fact - a decision made years ago by the Trust as it was the first NHS hospital in the country opened by Nye Bevan in 1948.

Black and white Photos of him meeting the Matron and surgeons in white oats (smoking!) adorn the walls of the corridors. The theatre rooms look sparse - not much equipment back in those days - and the wards with rows of metal beds lined up with hospital blankets tucked tightly in look from a different world. Hardly anything not functional to see, no soft furnishings for instance, just scrubbed waxed floors and nurses standing in starched uniforms!

Times have changed and not everything for the better.

A thought.

Agency staff cost the NHS a huge amount of money. Nurses often retire at 55y to collect their good sized lump sum and NHS pension ... then many go back to work for a day or two per week or work 3 or 4 night shifts a month as the pay is so lucrative. I know of one or two nursing staff who did this in the past.

As my husband said at the time “you can’t blame them for gaming the system but if, like in the private sector working they had to make a definitive choice many would opt just to keep on working”. At the factory he worked at, once you took your lump sum and pension you weren’t allowed to go back under any circumstances! Maybe the NHS ought to be the same?

growstuff

Incidentally, teachers usually do private tuition in addition to a full timetable, not instead of working full-time for the NHS.

So do consultants, many private operations take place in the evening when the consultant has done a stint at their NHS job. Teachers also do supply work, work part time, do other jobs + do coaching/private tuition. fwiw lots of consultants do research along with their clinical practice with then feeds back into the NHS, they teach their junior colleagues too as part of the Hippocratic Oath. My niece is a consultant, she waited until she was 40 and fully qualified to have children, she's working part time for a few years because she wants to spend some time with her children (her job was totally all consuming before that). she doesn't do any private work. Do you resent her working part time when she's received so much expensive training?

Urmstongran

The local hospital where I used to work up the road does not charge for car parking in it’s huge car park AussieG. I’m very proud of that fact - a decision made years ago by the Trust as it was the first NHS hospital in the country opened by Nye Bevan in 1948.

Black and white Photos of him meeting the Matron and surgeons in white oats (smoking!) adorn the walls of the corridors. The theatre rooms look sparse - not much equipment back in those days - and the wards with rows of metal beds lined up with hospital blankets tucked tightly in look from a different world. Hardly anything not functional to see, no soft furnishings for instance, just scrubbed waxed floors and nurses standing in starched uniforms!

Times have changed and not everything for the better.

My mother, who became an SRN in the early 50s, worked in a hospital just like the one you describe! It was Lambeth Hospital in South London. She trained on the job and, as a divorcée, got a government grant to send me to a boarding school on the basis of her training for a profession.
During the school holidays (long) I was allowed to live in with her in the nurse's residence on site (we shared her single bed), and the hospital gave permission for me to follow her on the wards occasionally. I was even given a couple of jobs - re-winding washed elastic bandages on a little wooden machine for re-use, and loading the autoclave. They also gave permission for me to attend (suitably attired) a minor surgical operation - but I almost fainted at the prospect, so declined .
Can you even imagine any of that being allowed now!
I have the lasting impression of those polished and waxed floors, smelling of lavender, and the rows of metal-framed beds. And the grunting and grumbling of old men - she was on the men's surgical ward.
I also had a school-girl crush on Trevor, a 'male' nurse as they were described in those days, and used to drag my mother to the hospital cafeteria where he sometimes sat, and make gooey eyes at him.
Everyone thought I'd follow in her footsteps, but after being shunned by Trevor, I decided to go into commerce instead .

Most of the consultant appointments my DH and I attended were on an evening or on Saturdays. Same for scans. DH is the sort, of which there are many, who won't take time off work, so out of hours appointments fit in nicely for them.

On one occasion the phlebotomy department at the private hospital lost a blood request form and I noticed they had a direct line to the consultant at her NHS job at The Royal Free and she answered straightaway.

As long as doctors fulfil their contracted hours I can't see a problem with them undertaking private work.
The hospitals are separate here.

There's a facility not far from here which undertakes routine operations for the NHS and a friend is going to have her cataracts done at another private hospital in England also courtesy of the NHS.

Problems may arise if anything goes wrong after an operation at a private hospital as then the patient will be taken to a NHS hospital for emergency treatment.

Casdon

Private healthcare cover doesn’t generally cover emergencies or chronic/complex medical conditions, including cancer or dementia. Should you need an emergency procedure you will also still be dependent on the NHS.

Yes, which I mentioned also in my post above if anything goes wrong after private treatment..

foxie48

growstuff

Incidentally, teachers usually do private tuition in addition to a full timetable, not instead of working full-time for the NHS.

So do consultants, many private operations take place in the evening when the consultant has done a stint at their NHS job. Teachers also do supply work, work part time, do other jobs + do coaching/private tuition. fwiw lots of consultants do research along with their clinical practice with then feeds back into the NHS, they teach their junior colleagues too as part of the Hippocratic Oath. My niece is a consultant, she waited until she was 40 and fully qualified to have children, she's working part time for a few years because she wants to spend some time with her children (her job was totally all consuming before that). she doesn't do any private work. Do you resent her working part time when she's received so much expensive training?

There are all sorts of things in workplaces of all types that are perfectly reasonable on a personal level, but become problematic when lots of people do them. Part-time working is one of them.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to start work a bit late and miss the rush hour commute, but if everyone did it business couldn't open at 9.00am (or whatever). I don't blame your niece for optimising her hours, but that doesn't mean that it's good for the NHS as a whole.

I have no issue with people paying for hotel-style accommodation or other 'extras', but where health is concerned, and even though I realise that we are, to see extent, being given little choice in some cases, I don't support queue-jumping, either at appointment or treatment level. Health is too important for that.

I don't understand the comment about your niece working part-time foxie.

BTW I had my first child when I was 37, had six months' maternity leave and went back to work full-time as a teacher and my second when I was 42 and repeated the process because I couldn't afford to do otherwise. But I don't really see that it's relevant to a discussion about people queue jumping in the NHS.

That ‘thin edge of wedge’ has been around ages…I had to pay £60 at Boots to have my ears syringed …although technically it’s sort of ‘vacuuming’ now…now if I remember didn’t the doctor or nurse do that !?

I would happily pay for food and use of a bed but only if the NHS stop wasting our money and slimmed down their overpaid top level administrators.

I’m having my cataract done in private facility at cost to NHS….I chose this as the hospital who did my first cataract op , pre-Covid , messed it up and I had to have a repair op! 4 years in and still have trouble closing my eye!

I am of the opinion that if the will and commitment were there, the NHS could ultimately function to a level that would benefit all. That is the starting point.

I don't believe this current government have either (though some MPs are more enthusiastic than others). For various reasons; ideology, vested interests and 'short-termism' quick-fix solutions which make good sound-bites but don't address the root causes... the sticking-plaster solutions.

Growstuff I thought you had made a comment about consultants working part time in the NHS so they could do private work. Apologies if it was not you.

All wealthy people I know already have private insurance/ healthcare. Shorter waiting lists, if any, good care ... etc.

I am the odd one out amongst famiky and friends and they live in Scotland from Borders to Highlands and they all have private health insurance. If I wasn't so old I would too. The system is caving in. Hospice care for late DH was good but oh my the place was dismal. Badly needing upgraded or closed. Eqiop.ent euther not working or breaking down. My DH described it as looking like a prison. DD who died 3 years ago in a Hospice was given excellent care in a modern and beautiful atmosphere, run by Charity organisation. I have been waiting 7 months for physio, no hope really. Spent £600 on physio a year ago for an injury GP treated over phone with two painkillers. Useless. After all the cost physio declared she couldn't fix problem, felt it should have been surgery at time of injury. The NHS as we know it is doomed I feel NS did comment on the wealthy contributing being raised at a meeting. Heads of NHS trusts etc were doing a bit of blue sky thinking apparently.

How long before SNP propose charging anyone identifying as English for using the NHS in Scotland?

Sharp intake of breath .........

The gov't say they are spending more on the NHS than ever before and yes, they are, the budget has traditionally gone up 5% or so each year but because they insist on using private companies to commission services it costs more cos they have shareholders who expect a payout, like Serco for example, the extra does not go on frontline services.
I can see you get referred to a website so you can see your place on the NHS waiting list and your private options and how quickly you can be seen next to it.

we already have a 2 tier NHS, I used to get free chiropody for my twisted feet, now I have to pay, paracetamol used to be free if you needed it, no longer.

It is the thin end of the wedge, as you put it, and woe betide those who have nothing, cos they will get the worse deal

I imagine the wealthy already do pay - and for emergency care there IS only NHS. Are we going to bill rich people for having Accidents and Emergencies?

I disagree, we have paid into the health service for many many years so should not have to pay for hospital visits/food/admissions. If people want to they can opt to go privately. Their choice but the rest of us who exist on a state pension should not have to pay for services that we have already paid into. Yes I know the NHS is in trouble but it is this damn government that has caused this. Get rid of them and let someone who can help do the job.

I have seen an awful lot of waste, when my dad died they would not accept any of the equipment back. Things like bed rails, walking frame, raised loo seat etc because they “don’t have the sterilisation facilities”. Surely if they did, it would be cheaper than buying new. They also don’t accept unused dressings, unopened medication etc even though most of these are individually wrapped, and these are just a few things that we know about. It does make you wonder about other things.

If it wasn’t for the NHS being willing to spend a LOT of money on me, I would have died in 2007. When I needed them they were there.

Last week I got a go appointment on the same day I phoned up. I was really unwell and my gp sent me to hospital. Although he advised that it would be quicker to make our own way there than wait for an ambulance.

Once there, I was seen quickly as it was suspected that I had a blood clot (I have history), blood tests, chest x-ray, mri, all happened quickly. The staff, though rushed off their feet, were kind and helpful.

Luckily for me, it turned out to be pneumonia not a blood clot. I was admitted to hospital. Spent the night in an assessment unit before being moved to a ward. Where I had to wait for a bed. I sat in a chair from 2 pm until 8.30pm, before I finally got one.

The food was nice enough. I wouldn’t complain about it.

Once again the NHS was there when I needed it.

The thing that sticks in my mind is a care assistant who came on the ward while I was watching the budget or statement. Whatever the the chancellor was calling it. She said that staff didn’t do the job for the money but they still had to eat.

The NHS is a precious resource that belongs to us all. We need to demand that the government protect it and finance it properly. As long as the government think that the majority of people don’t really care and are critical of it, they will continue to run it into the ground. Underfunding. Privatisation by stealth. We have to stand up to be counted n this. Or just maybe the next time you need it, it won’t be there. Your treatment will depend on how well you can afford to pay.

we are already having to pay for dentists and some people can not find an nhs dentist where they live, as the dentists say they cannot do the necessary work for the amount they are allowed. Also one of my gripes is that now it is assumed that the majority of people have phones and comuters when they do not all have them. Here you need to ring at 8am or go online to get an appointent within the next couple of days. Tough if you havent got either,you would have to go yourself or get someone to go in person for you to organise an appointment. This is making a 2 tier version of nhs .