Healthcare. Is this he thin edge of the wedge?

Casdon

I retired at the end of 2020. growstuff, and I did work in Wales. The English Health and Care Act only received Royal Assent on 28 April 2022 though, so any changes to the way NHS England operates won’t have been enacted yet.

Yes, they were Casdon. I'm referring to the 2011 Health and Social Care Act.

The Royal Brompton Hospital Trust in London received £33.6 million from private patients in 2014. Goodness knows what it receives now.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/19/private-patient-income-soars-nhs-privatisation

The cap on treating private patients was lifted to 49% in 2012.

Foundation trusts have seen greater growth in private practice than non-
foundation trusts (LaingBuisson 2016). Non-foundation trusts which are
struggling to meet NHS financial and other targets are less likely to be
able to treat private patients, since Department of Health guidance states
that private practice must not adversely affect the ability of a hospital to
meet the needs of NHS patients (UK Department of Health 2009). As one
consultant at a trust in the south-east of England put it, “When we are
struggling to meet the NHS targets there is no place for private patients....
There is a massive bed crisis, a bad situation, we can’t manage. So there are
no private patients at all. It is not banned, but there simply is no room
chpi.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/CHPI-NHS-Private-Patients-Mar18.pdf

growstuff

Casdon

I retired at the end of 2020. growstuff, and I did work in Wales. The English Health and Care Act only received Royal Assent on 28 April 2022 though, so any changes to the way NHS England operates won’t have been enacted yet.

Yes, they were Casdon. I'm referring to the 2011 Health and Social Care Act.

The Royal Brompton Hospital Trust in London received £33.6 million from private patients in 2014. Goodness knows what it receives now.

www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/19/private-patient-income-soars-nhs-privatisation

The cap on treating private patients was lifted to 49% in 2012.

Okay, but the separation rules for private and NHS work still apply in every hospital, so you would still be able to complain if NHS patients were adversely affected. I’m very glad I live in Wales, it’s simpler here.

How do you prove that you're adversely affected? You would need the lists of appointments and waiting times. The local MP did complain a couple of years ago and there was an article in the press about it, but the hospital denied that NHS patients are affected.

To quote someone famous “well he (they) would say that wouldn’t he (they)?”
🤣🤣🤣

But foxie people wanting scans don't need beds. NHS patients, however, need scans.

Eg
If the waiting time for the tests you were quoted when you saw your consultant is exceeded
If you are told by the radiographer, as it seems you were, that private patients are taking NHS slots
if your appointment time is inconvenient, eg after 5pm because private patients are taking prime slots during normal working hours
If a private patient is prioritised whilst you’re there waiting, and you have to wait past your appointment time in the department
Probably more, those are off the top of my head.

The Royal Brompton is probably the leading UK hospital in heart and lung conditions, it takes the some of the most difficult and complex cases from all over the country which are extremely expensive to treat. If it partially funds this by being the leading private provider of diagnostics, surely this is to everyone's advantage as long as this is not in any way disadvantaging NHS patients?

I'm not particularly knowledgeable in any of this, but given the choice of paying towards the NHS or private healthcare I would choose private from past experience.

I don’t blame you Joseanne. I think more of us would if it were a choice we could afford.

Imagine being wealthy, having a degree of health anxiety and being able to look at the contacts in your phone on speed dial. What a reassurance that would be given the present situation.

It’s a bit like the curate’s egg ... good in parts.

The trouble is that for a lot of us it's too late. Anyone over 50 or with existing conditions won't get cover at anything like an affordable price.

Urmstongran

It’s not just about money now. The government has thrown £££s at it. The NHS needs to function better. Cut out waste and quangos. Ditch the woke slogans and posters. Cull some of the accepted routines. Find and fund a robust I,T. platform that can be shared across several (or all Trusts). Surely in this day and age this is possible and no longer a technological pipedream?

Years ago (about 6y) our grandson sustained an injury in Spain. He was entered into their health system. The interpreter friend who accompanied us to the local health centre to have his stitches removed afterwards told us his allocated unique number would suffice access at any hospital in their country. I was impressed. In some ways the Spanish health care system is far better than ours (and with outcomes) than what ours delivers.

We need reform, investment and much more. The NHS has lost its way with various Trusts ‘competing’ for ‘clients’ as the money follows the patient. Consequently it cannot decide whether it is running a business or providing a service and falls between the two stools.

Some friends with a holiday home home in Spain had a terrible experience in a Spanish hospital last winter. They waited several hours before he was triaged. The nurses were rude and ignored them. I could on.

Casdon

Eg
If the waiting time for the tests you were quoted when you saw your consultant is exceeded
If you are told by the radiographer, as it seems you were, that private patients are taking NHS slots
if your appointment time is inconvenient, eg after 5pm because private patients are taking prime slots during normal working hours
If a private patient is prioritised whilst you’re there waiting, and you have to wait past your appointment time in the department
Probably more, those are off the top of my head.

Yes, it was. It was nearly five months before I had my cancer op from the time of initial diagnosis.

I was told that the hospital treats a number of private patients - presumably during the day, just like everybody else. This one couldn't go ahead with the MRI because her insurance company wouldn't fund it. If she's been self-funding, it would have happened. The radiographer was cross that a slot had been "wasted" - the hospital wasn't even being paid for it.

foxie48

The Royal Brompton is probably the leading UK hospital in heart and lung conditions, it takes the some of the most difficult and complex cases from all over the country which are extremely expensive to treat. If it partially funds this by being the leading private provider of diagnostics, surely this is to everyone's advantage as long as this is not in any way disadvantaging NHS patients?

So you're OK with the NHS being subsidised by queue jumpers.

A questions for all you experts ...

I assume you were all senior managers in the NHS and understand systems ... how would YOU reduce waste and increase efficiency? You obviously all know far more than all the people who have been brought in to investigate over the years.

Joseanne

I'm not particularly knowledgeable in any of this, but given the choice of paying towards the NHS or private healthcare I would choose private from past experience.

Agreed, we're in a private scheme.

Works, for our needs, in the UK - which haven't been many. Not whilst traveling, though many purchase that as well.

We've had a lot more experience of the health system here in France than we ever had in England, although my parents and siblings have had excellent treatment.

I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating. We are registered with the health system which entitles us to health care. The state pays about 75% of our costs and we have top insurance for the difference. Ours will cost us 223 euros a month. As a severe asthmatic the state pays 100%m as it does with terminal illnesses. When we first arrived here back in 2009 I considered whether to pay for the top up but a friend said that whilst terminal care is completely free you have to pay for all the tests that are necessary before the diagnosis is reached. As we were over retirement age i decided that we should pay and I'm glad we did.

The good thing about the top up insurance is that they cannot get rid of you - unlike the private health insurers in the UK. The son of a former neighbour had cancer. He had his usual check up with BUPA and was pronounced OK. A few months later he had a relapse - BUPA wouldn't take him and so it was back to the NHS. Despite all their wonderful he died, aged early 30s.

Many of the private clinics in the UK do not have a full complement of medical staff on during the evenings and weekends and in patients in an emergencu have to go to the NHS.

Has anyone noticed how often the private clinics in the UK are built close to an NHS hospital? As with the lady who died a few weeks ago because they couldn't get an ambulance quickly?

Here we often chose our consultants. Sometimes our GP will recommend a specialist. There is a website called doctolib that you can look at, having decided which hospital you want to go to and you can then read about the specialists and book an appointment on line. You can find ratings of the various specialists. On a couple of occasions my DH was contacted because of cancellations.

Here we have separate hospitals, or separate wings specially for patients who no longer need to be in the main hospital but who need more care because either their family cannot cope or they are on their own. A bit lie former cottage hospitals perhaps.

Norah

Joseanne

I'm not particularly knowledgeable in any of this, but given the choice of paying towards the NHS or private healthcare I would choose private from past experience.

Agreed, we're in a private scheme.

Works, for our needs, in the UK - which haven't been many. Not whilst traveling, though many purchase that as well.

Please read my response above.

Private healthcare cover doesn’t generally cover emergencies or chronic/complex medical conditions, including cancer or dementia. Should you need an emergency procedure you will also still be dependent on the NHS.

Given the dire state of the NHS of course the wealthy (or desperate) are already paying for private treatment.
The Tories loathe the ethos of the NHS and have deliberately run it down in order todo away with it. They will then adopt the US system of health insurance to make vast profits out of sickness for the drug companies.

growstuff

foxie48

The Royal Brompton is probably the leading UK hospital in heart and lung conditions, it takes the some of the most difficult and complex cases from all over the country which are extremely expensive to treat. If it partially funds this by being the leading private provider of diagnostics, surely this is to everyone's advantage as long as this is not in any way disadvantaging NHS patients?

So you're OK with the NHS being subsidised by queue jumpers.

No but I am realistic enough to know that if our research hospitals can continue to offer expensive and often ground breaking surgery to NHS patients then it needs to be paid for. Consultants do their hours for the NHS and if they see private patients outside of those hours, then surely that is up to them. Does anyone stop teachers offering private coaching outside of school hours? If an NHS hospital has spare capacity for diagnostics, surely it is better for that capacity to be used and paid for by private patients? I don't suffer from being envious of people who have more choices than I do but I do subscribe to doing whatever improves access to good treatment for those who don't have a choice.

Compared to other contries we get off lightly as far as charges go . Even in Ireland ( South) you pay for A & E if your GP has not sent you . We have gone down the private route out of desperation as the wait to see a consultant was getting us nowhere .

But foxie How many NHS hospitals have spare capacity, when NHS hospitals' waiting lists are getting longer and longer?

I don't agree with you.

It's true that there are increasingly expensive and ground-breaking treatments available, but I believe they should be available for all with no queue jumping. And I believe we all need to accept that if we want them, we need to pay for them through the taxation system.

Incidentally, teachers usually do private tuition in addition to a full timetable, not instead of working full-time for the NHS.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.