Unconscious bias / racism/ assumptions made maybe?

tickingbird

Deleted post

The boys didn't run. Did you read the article properly?

Allsorts imagine those two boys were white relatives of yours, treated in exactly the same way - including their mother, who is perhaps your sister or daughter, being told lies about where her son was.

Would you think it was all fine?

FarNorth

Allsorts imagine those two boys were white relatives of yours, treated in exactly the same way - including their mother, who is perhaps your sister or daughter, being told lies about where her son was.

Would you think it was all fine?

Exactly. It scares me for my grandson.

It makes very clear in the article that the boys did not run away. It's also been repeated several times in the thread. As have several other things that appear to be being ignored

It is interesting how easily facts are ignored to fit a particular perspective! Which brings me back to an original question about unconscious assumptions!

Wyllow3

Are you serious in your last sentence? The statistics on stop and search whether the person is on foot or on a car, if they are black, tell the truth - black people are far more likely to be apprehended when nothing is amiss. Every black youth grows up knowing this. Of course there is distrust - and fear.

Yes deadly serious. They stop and search for a reason. They’re trying to do their job. Known criminals - black or white - and associates of will be stopped. They make mistakes granted but once a person has been stopped the best thing to do is comply. Don’t let an annoyance turn into a major incident.

I’ve been stopped more than once in my life. Twice the officers were very cocky but I kept my cool, apologised for violating traffic regulations, acted suitably contrite and was allowed to go on my way. In my head I was thinking something else entirely but you can’t win so just comply.

This doesn't look like a well controlled situation involving trained officers, although that's what they're supposed to be.

Madgran, I am open minded and fair. I don't agree with making judgement on so few facts, you don't know. This escalates negative thinking we should be trying to all get on together.

Can you say where you're getting your information from, Madgran77 because you're detailing things that aren't in either of the links posted in the OP.

A link would be helpful

Which ones Maizie? Some are also from Channel 4 interview with mum, linked in one of articles. I have read other articles though. Will see if I can find them

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

How dare you GaraJo. You want to label me a rascist so you have an agenda, I don’t know if these youngsters were beaten up as you say.

Allsorts

Madgran, I am open minded and fair. I don't agree with making judgement on so few facts, you don't know. This escalates negative thinking we should be trying to all get on together.

I am asking questions Allsorts about WHY this incident escalated to the extent it did with 2 schoolboys in school uniform. The point being it potentially opens up a wider discussion on deeper issues. I think that all aspects should be considered within the facts and that includes the potential different perspective of 2 black school boys in this scenario. I haven't specifically made a judgement although I do have a perspective of what MIGHT have mitigated the situation. Im raising the issue of considering how POTENTIALLY unconscious assumptions can impact on how situations develop according to who are involved

This truly is nothing personal but I AM confused by why you appear to be ignoring certain aspects that ARE in those two articles and the mothers interview. And I'm a bit shocked by the dismissal of a calm articulate mother asking perfectly reasonable questions, being dismissed as "whatever!"

tickingbird

Wyllow3

Are you serious in your last sentence? The statistics on stop and search whether the person is on foot or on a car, if they are black, tell the truth - black people are far more likely to be apprehended when nothing is amiss. Every black youth grows up knowing this. Of course there is distrust - and fear.

Yes deadly serious. They stop and search for a reason. They’re trying to do their job. Known criminals - black or white - and associates of will be stopped. They make mistakes granted but once a person has been stopped the best thing to do is comply. Don’t let an annoyance turn into a major incident.

I’ve been stopped more than once in my life. Twice the officers were very cocky but I kept my cool, apologised for violating traffic regulations, acted suitably contrite and was allowed to go on my way. In my head I was thinking something else entirely but you can’t win so just comply.

Hmm
Ever been stopped just because a black person driving a smart car BMW. or Audi - MUST be a drug dealer?

A vehicle stop involving Ricardo Dos Santos has been referred to a police watchdog after the Portuguese sprinter was pulled over by officers for a second time.
The Olympic athlete shared footage of him being stopped by seven armed police officers while driving home in London in the early hours of Sunday Independent
Or from the Guardian with more details
An athlete who was stopped and handcuffed by police alongside her partner and baby son has said the experience left her feeling like “being black is a crime”, as politicians questioned the officers’ actions
Bianca Williams and her partner, Ricardo dos Santos, who are both trained by the former Olympic champion Linford Christie, were stopped while driving back to their home in Maida Vale, west London, on Saturday
Officers’ handling of the incident came under scrutiny after Christie accused the Metropolian police of institutional racism and posted footage of the couple being forced out of the car. In the video, Williams, who is obviously distressed, says repeatedly: “My son is in the car “

You all want to believe what you want to. Until the actual facts emerge I won’t judge. If these youngsters, we’re just beaten up, that’s appalling and then the officers will be sacked, if the youngsters were throwing punches and aggressive and have a history, we shall find that out too. Too many explosive inaccurate reporting goes on and mud sticks, I wait until the investigation into this is done.

It would be interesting to point out that BTP are not employed by our government. They receive no funding from the home office but apply for grants. They are employed by the train operators.
A bit like G4 running our prison service.

All-sorts, whatever the facts are, you'll argue against the person of colour. I have yet to see you take any position other than defending racism on GN. There may of course be instances I've missed, in which case, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

You all want to believe what you want to

It's about being open to the possibilities, considerations of different perspectives ...not "belief"!!

Until the actual facts emerge I won’t judge.

There ARE facts given. Which should not be ignored. Absolutely, more facts may emerge either way. They should not be ignored either! But the nuance of the POSSIBLE causes of the escalation beyond 2 teenagers not remaining calm enough and being too tall should be considered and thought about including in any review by the authorities!

And it is very clear from the video and story that neither boy was "beaten up" and as far as I am aware noone has suggested they were! Where did that come from?

MerylStreep

It would be interesting to point out that BTP are not employed by our government. They receive no funding from the home office but apply for grants. They are employed by the train operators.
A bit like G4 running our prison service.

Yes you are correct. The Metropolitan police were called to make arrest and took 15 year old to Bromley Police Station so BTP and Police work together when they need to I suppose

Apart from the wrongful arrest of a 13 year old for fare dodging, then pinning a 15 year old boy against the wall and presumably illegally searching him (how else was the rock found?), the police then lied to the mother who spent two hours trying to find her son. What else could this be except racism? The police must know that boys of 15 are now taller, and should know they are to be treated as minors. One of my sons was 6ft at 14 so it isn't uncommon, nor is it limited to black children.
The police at the police station have clearly broken the law which says
A person who detains any person in pursuance of the preceding provisions of this section shall, as soon as practicable after doing so, inform him of the reason for his detention and take such steps as are practicable for informing his parent or guardian of his detention and of the reason for it.
None of the authorities involved in the arrest of this boy followed proper procedure. I only hope that they are disciplined for it

I’ve been stopped more than once in my life. Twice the officers were very cocky but I kept my cool, apologised for violating traffic regulations, acted suitably contrite and was allowed to go on my way. In my head I was thinking something else entirely but you can’t win so just comply

But I bet you were not arrested. Despite violating regulations as you say, just like the 13 year old boy did, no major crime, just 'violation'.

But I bet you were not arrested. Despite violating regulations as you say, just like the 13 year old boy did, no major crime, just 'violation'.

No it wasn’t an arrestable offense but if I had driven off, refused to give my name etc I would have been.

Argue all you like but police are there to stop crime.

MawtheMerrier

If they had exited the car when asked they wouldn’t have needed to be forced out.

London has a majority population of minorities. This means more black people are going to be stopped than white people. That aside there should be a strict protocol to be followed. It remains to be seen if it was applied in this case. The police seem to be confident from their personal web cams, which they have offered to show the family, that they did not act in an inappropriate way. Rightly or wrongly mum is convinced that the main reason her sons were treated the way they were is because they are black.

Clearly an investigation needs to be held into what happened. It seems to be the transport police’s actions that need to be examined and appraised, and if found to be at fault should be looked at and guidance and training issued as to how to handle such situations. I have to say on the surface they seem to have taken a sledgehammer to crack a nut in persuing the case of one child travelling without a ticket probably because he had forgotten it which is easily checked. Big brother may have been out of hand but he was protecting his younger sibling. It will be interesting to see what the transport police have to say for themselves.

No it wasn’t an arrestable offense but if I had driven off, refused to give my name etc I would have been.

They didn't run off! No idea about giving name. But their perspective on giving names in the context of being black and potential experiences from their perspective could reasonably be considered as to why their circumstances/ responses might be different to yours!

So adult white people violate traffic regulations, apologise and get away with it. One teenage black boy forgets his oyster card and is arrested for it. Could you have a more vivid example of how racism works in the police?