Unconscious bias / racism/ assumptions made maybe?

JaneJudge

I'd have been worried if it was my 15yo let alone a 13yo. I don't really understand why presumably a group full of Mums and Grans can be so unsympathetic - bias or no bias, conscious or unconscious

I am rather bemused as well *JaneJudge".

That is not because I am assuming anything per se. But because some seem to be completely unwilling to consider the perspective of these boys; the FACT that they were 15 and 13! I mean does anyone else sort of know what teenagers might be like under pressure? Pressure like watching your younger brother being arrested? Are rail staff aware then? Maybe that should be considered in how to manage such situations?

Is it so difficult to consider that aspect for discussion in this scenario and in reviewing what happened?

Then the perspective of the mother also seems to have been lost ..I mean, not knowing where her son was for 2 hours....then finding he was in a cell at the police station - the first one she contacted no less, who told her they had no idea where he was!! Conscious, Unconscious or anything else in expressing ones viewpoint, how can that be lost .... no wonder she is upset and angry!

tickingbird

^Maybe to suit your own unconscious agenda?^

Maybe just old fashioned common sense.

sigh

Maybe just old fashioned common sense.

For you yes! For me too probably in my experience and perspective and as an older white woman!!

Can you not see that from the perspective of 2 black teenagers with their experience and knowledge of the statistical risks for black boys/men then just maybe it is harder for them?

And I really am not sure how much common sense and calm I would have been able to muster whilst watching my 13 year old brother be arrested, when I was 15 (if I had had one!) I'm pretty sure my once 15 year old son would have panicked, observing his once 13 year old sister be arrested, if it had ever happened, which it didn't!

The point is, looking at a situation only from one perspective does not give an accurate picture of why this occurred, nor does it provide a full picture in any review!!

Madgran that's not what I meant lol

tickingbird

^Maybe to suit your own unconscious agenda?^

Maybe just old fashioned common sense.

Good old fashioned racism.

I don't think the agenda is unconscious either. I think some GN members are aware of their bias but think they're right.

GagaJo

I don't think the agenda is unconscious either. I think some GN members are aware of their bias but think they're right.

Yup

Yup.

They sure do.😬

GagaJo

I don't think the agenda is unconscious either. I think some GN members are aware of their bias but think they're right.

Yes, I am very sure of that.

VioletSky

Madgran that's not what I meant lol

Violet sorry, I don't understand? What didn't you mean?

I have nattered away so much on this thread, I'm getting confused 😏

GagaJo

I don't think the agenda is unconscious either. I think some GN members are aware of their bias but think they're right.

That is an interesting one Gagajo. Does someone think they are right because unconscious bias/racism "proves" to them that they are right? That's probably a new thread subject really, though!

That's too much for me Madgran77. I can't get my head round the permutations of that.

I meant I was a bit shocked by some of the comments that demonstrate your point

GagaJo

That's too much for me Madgran77. I can't get my head round the permutations of that.

It's hard I know. Potentially interesting though. 🤔

VioletSky

I meant I was a bit shocked by some of the comments that demonstrate your point

Ah ..so your eyes have been opened?

I have been a bit shocked too . Especially when responses to explain are apparently, conveniently ignored!

Anyway, it's a good discussion and pretty informative on lots of levels!

Madgran77

GagaJo

That's too much for me Madgran77. I can't get my head round the permutations of that.

It's hard I know. Potentially interesting though. 🤔

Definitely. Thanks.

Madgran77

VioletSky

I meant I was a bit shocked by some of the comments that demonstrate your point

Ah ..so your eyes have been opened?

I have been a bit shocked too . Especially when responses to explain are apparently, conveniently ignored!

Anyway, it's a good discussion and pretty informative on lots of levels!

Ah, I'm on solid ground with this one. A biaed POV can't handle the rational facts. So the easiest way to not confront the bias is to ignore the facts.

Ah, I'm on solid ground with this one. A biased POV can't handle the rational facts. So the easiest way to not confront the bias is to ignore the facts

And maybe ignore any uncomfortable explanations given or questions asked, that don't fit!

I do believe that constructive discussions, allowing for disagreement and debate without taking offence or unpleasantness, is the most constructive way to maybe open minds or make us all analyse our perspectives and perceptions, and I am pleased that, generally, that has been managed on this thread. (gosh that is a loooong sentence!!😆)

Madgran77

These are all the links that I can get to cut and paste. Some others just won't I don't know why!

I am still unclear what I have said that is not detailed in the original links Maizie but hope that these below add information for you

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/08/woman-accuses-police-excessive-force-black-sons-at-south-london-station

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mums-anger-sons-restrained-cuffed-28692986

www.mylondon.news/news/south-london-news/mums-anger-sons-handcuffed-one-25717641

www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/england/btp-make-voluntary-referral-to-iopc-after-shortlands-arrests/

twitter.com/Toddpodd/status/1599729353595551744

Thanks for these.

I was interested in the 'running away' claim that was made by some posters because I couldn't find it in the 2 links originally posted. I might have missed it somewhere, but I can't find it in these links either.

I find this incident shocking, too. A 13 y old arrested for not having his oyster card? Who would normally get arrested for that?

Indeed, some responses have been shocking. But all of a piece with the recent Buckingham Palace incident...

Hi Maizie, I saw an interview with one of the witnesses in which she states clearly that the 2 boys did not run away and she saw 2 other boys running away....her view was that those boys ran because they were scared by what was happening. I can't remember which article that was in, sorry.

Maizie Thinking about it I think I might have also read that in the Times re it was 2 other boys who ran away. I goet a hard copy if the Tines each day ...and can't post link as you have to subscribe and pay to read the Times online!,

Madgran77

Maizie Thinking about it I think I might have also read that in the Times re it was 2 other boys who ran away. I goet a hard copy if the Tines each day ...and can't post link as you have to subscribe and pay to read the Times online!,

Don't worry. Thanks for the ones you did find.

If only I could afford to subscribe to everything

Allsorts

They were stopped for ticket evasion, which anyone would be. Carrying a rock in a pocket could be used as an offensive weapon.
The way you've talked about this is not accurate..
I have seen people apprehended for not having a ticket, none caused a fuss and ran off, what did they expect. It's nothing to do with being black, it's not buying a ticket, shouting and running off and carrying a rock.. At 6'4" that's very tall he probably appeared adult. Some more infirmation needed before judging. A lot if mothers stick up for their children, whatever.

No wonder there's problems.

Have I missed something? Where did it say they caused a fuss and ran off?
I'm afraid your unconscious racism shows all too clearly.

In the old days there were ticket inspectors who just looked at tickets. People without tickets would get an on the spot fine and that was that. No arrests, no aggression and no police involved at all. Things are definitely going pear shaped when some poor youth is carted off to the police station and indeed was searched at all. Why ? I’d be spitting chips if someone searched me for not having a travel card.

Why indeed nann8.