Unconscious bias / racism/ assumptions made maybe?

I'm sorry you feel bullied Lyndie. I'm not sure why you do, but accept that you do. .

Perhaps Violet is right and discussions do mean that people will question and disagree. As she says disagreement is not bullying. It's just not thinking the same and in good discussions, having an open mind to consider different perspectives including why one has one's own perspective.

Hope you find a conversation where you feel more comfortable

“Find another thread poster.”

That’s bullying

I once genuinely thought the same way and I once was ignorant

Personal growth

We can do better

We are not a product of our time, we exist in the now and we can all be better. Which will help avoid situations like the one those boys faced by not excusing wrongful arrest.

Thank you Lathyrus.

It is unacceptable to call another posters viewpoint “ignorant”.

That is not disagreement, it is judgemental and based , as you say, on your own vision of your superiority.

Exercising perceived superiority over another is bullying.

Lyndie, it’s best not to speak rationally on here. If you don’t agree with the narrow narrative, people are bullied off. I understand completely what you mean. It’s judge first ask questions later I’m afraid. The officers work under very difficult circumstances, just doing their jobs, were all wearing vests the footage of which will be scrutinised, only then can judgement be made.

Madgran77, the criterion in England and Wales is ‘reasonable grounds to suspect’

Stop and search: police powers
A police officer has powers to stop and search if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect someone is carrying:

- illegal drugs
- a weapon
- stolen property
- something which could be used to commit a crime, such as a crowbar

However, a senior officer can give permission for someone to be stopped and searched without reasonable grounds. This can happen if it is suspected that:

- serious violence could take place
- a person is carrying a weapon or has used one
- a person is in a specific location or area

In Scotland, there is a Code of Practice which says that the police must have 'reasonable grounds' to stop and search someone. This is defined as reasonable suspicion that someone has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime, or is carrying an illegal item.

In both jurisdictions, as far as I am aware, but definitely in England and Wales, the police can stop and question anyone at any time - but there are limits on what they can ask.
(Sources: UK government; Scottish government; a senior police officer that I just asked)

Lyndie

I am colour blind. I deal with all races and nationalities exactly the same.

That is a luxury people of colour don't have. They're forced into extreme forms of deference in the face of authority given the amount of institutional racism evident in most of our social structures.

Being able to not 'see' race or ethnicity is linked to white privilege.

Lyndie

One of the meanings of ignorant is lacking in knowledge

I think you are lacking in knowledge about what people face and I have tried to explain it to you. I don't agree with your viewpoint and I think you need to rethink it. My best friend did that for me in the exact same way and I love her for it. I also have over 27 years seen what she faces and its not good. I need to see her as a black woman, fully or I do not know her.

I'm sorry it hurt you

I do agree that "ignorant" is an unfortunate word to use in a response to what someone had said ..but I also see exactly what Violet is saying within the bigger picture.

As I said Lyndie I am sorry that you feel bullied. Personally I remain interested in your viewpoint on the things being discussed.

Please understand Lindsey, that any apology that gaslights you (I think you are wrong, you need to rethink) or that implies that the fault is yours in being “hurt” is not a real apology.

These are common techniques used in bullying.

Also minimising terms such as “unfortunate “ or “I am sorry that you feel bullied” are all intended to deflect from what the bully has actually sad or done.

Your perception was that you had been bullied, Lindsey.

Your perception is your reality.

So many assumptions on here but until the full investigation takes place we can’t be certain. If the investigation shows there was wrongful action by the authorities it needs to be recognised and something done about it. There are two sides to every story, so let’s hear the other side before jumping to conclusions.

Lathyrus

Also minimising terms such as “unfortunate “ or “I am sorry that you feel bullied” are all intended to deflect from what the bully has actually sad or done.

Your perception was that you had been bullied, Lindsey.

Your perception is your reality.

Your perception is YOUR reality. Yes, but not everyone else's. Surely it is possible to disagree on a subject and say so, without automatically being a bully.

Violet has apologised, and it sounded sincere to me.

Allsorts

Lyndie, it’s best not to speak rationally on here. If you don’t agree with the narrow narrative, people are bullied off. I understand completely what you mean. It’s judge first ask questions later I’m afraid. The officers work under very difficult circumstances, just doing their jobs, were all wearing vests the footage of which will be scrutinised, only then can judgement be made.

Allsorts I cannot agree that it is "narrow narrative", there have been a hugely wide range of views expressed. As I said previously, I think it is a pity that you did not feel able to continue with the discussion but of course that is your prerogative.

You appear to be suggesting that anyone who hasn't left/been bullied off cannot be speaking rationally! In fact a number of people with very differing views on the subject have remained, speaking rationally within their own perspectives and discussing differing view points.

There have been some statements which appear to be pre-judging but far from all posters are doing that. Many are trying to stick with the information available and asking perfectly valid questions about:

*why this incident escalated as it did, for an unavailable Oyster Card, with 2 boys who did not run away
*why the police were called in this context
*why the older boy was searched when he was upset about his younger brother
*why the younger brother was sent off on his own out of the station, clearly upset, told to get his card (by the way he was not excessively tall and appears to have looked like a 13 year old!)
*why the police did not attempt to make contact with their mother when they had a 15 year old in custody
* why the mother was given incorrect information and why no police officer told her they would find out what had happened ....after she told them that she understood her 15 year old son had been arrested at Shortlands Train Station
*what are the nuances within this situation that should be considered in any revew

There are more questions but these give a general picture

I am well aware that there may be more information to come; that the police work in difficult circumstances (several of my family members are/have been in the police); that the 16 year old was 6' 4" tall; that it is entirely reasonable to be stopped for fare evasion ...and so on.

But none of that means that people shouldn't talk about a number of possible considerations in this scenario; the perspectives of the 2 boys which may be different from eg mine as a white older woman; the perspective of a calm, articulate mother asking extremely valid questions about what happened to her 15 year old son; the valid point made by the mother that no-one should be able to "disappear a 15 year old for 2 hours with no explanation or attempt to contact the parent" ...and so on

I hope that the discussion and debate can continue, particularly within the context of the nuances of such a situation and also within the bigger picture of this type of incident

I thought therefore laws regarding minors in custody?

Also minimising terms such as ....“I am sorry that you feel bullied” are all intended to deflect from what the bully has actually said or done.

Yes I agree Lathyrus that I expressed that badly . As I said I accept Lyndie felt bullied ...and I know that Lyndie's perception is her reality!

It certainly was not my intention to deflect from what "the bully has said or done" particularly as , as far a I am aware, Lyndie has not said that she felt bullied by me!

I have asked a lot of questions because I am interested in Lyndie's perceptions as I said to her previously!

Fleurpepper

Lathyrus

Also minimising terms such as “unfortunate “ or “I am sorry that you feel bullied” are all intended to deflect from what the bully has actually sad or done.

Your perception was that you had been bullied, Lindsey.

Your perception is your reality.

Your perception is YOUR reality. Yes, but not everyone else's. Surely it is possible to disagree on a subject and say so, without automatically being a bully.

Violet has apologised, and it sounded sincere to me.

Oh I think posters who have engaged in other threads about being bullied will confirm what I’ve said about gaslighting, minimising, and apologies that actually put the onus for feeling in a certain way back onto the injured person.

In fact, quite a lot of my understanding of these things have come from reading those threads, especially in the estrangement forums.

I confess the phrase about perception and reality is a bit of a quote from another poster. I did say, when I first saw it, what an impression it had made on me.

That is really helpful Siope; thankyou for posting it

So presumably something happened/was perceived during this incident that is covered by at least one of those criteria. I wonder what that was?!

And that does bring me back again to the nuances of why (IF he was!!, we don't know) a 15 year old might be yelling and arguing whilst observing his 13 year old brother being arrested for not having his Oyster card! And whether there are implications in that about how to manage such a situation when a kid in school uniform who looks to be about the right size for a 13 year old, arrives without his rail card!!

Madgran77

*Also minimising terms such as ....“I am sorry that you feel bullied” are all intended to deflect from what the bully has actually said or done.*

Yes I agree Lathyrus that I expressed that badly . As I said I accept Lyndie felt bullied ...and I know that Lyndie's perception is her reality!

It certainly was not my intention to deflect from what "the bully has said or done" particularly as , as far a I am aware, Lyndie has not said that she felt bullied by me!

I have asked a lot of questions because I am interested in Lyndie's perceptions as I said to her previously!

Thank you for your measured response madgran.

I thought from the start it was an interesting thread to have started and that there were bound to be different points of view expressed. Which there were until it got personal.

A shame. But I do stand by what I have said about bullying, Perhaps an example of the “unconscious”.

However posters who want others to examine what they are not conscious of, should perhaps be prepared to do the same and “rethink”.

www.itv.com/news/london/2022-06-24/black-schoolboy-14-handcuffed-and-forced-to-ground-in-mistaken-stop-and-search

Ignoring the gransnet police, judge and jury

I called my own views in the past ignorant and must be bullying myself

Anyway

Aren't there laws about minors in custody?

Lathyrus We should all certainly be prepared to consider conscious/unconscious and the potential to rethink. I still don't really understand why you quoted me, though, as an "intention to deflect from what the bully has done" as Lyndie hasn't said she feels bullied by me, so not sure what I'm supposed to be deflecting from. If my questions felt bullying then I expect she will tell me.

Anyway, hopefully no more "personal" detracts from a good discussion with so many different aspects to consider and discuss

www.theguardian.com/law/2022/dec/01/met-pays-out-to-black-brothers-searched-and-handcuffed-outside-home

remember not to greet your brother in the street, unless you want to be stopped and searched by police.
oh, unless you are white, that's all right.
guess some on here will say, well what did they expect, behaving like that.
they know the police will think that, so they shouldn't draw attention to themselves. ?
or something.

Allsorts

Lyndie, it’s best not to speak rationally on here. If you don’t agree with the narrow narrative, people are bullied off. I understand completely what you mean. It’s judge first ask questions later I’m afraid. The officers work under very difficult circumstances, just doing their jobs, were all wearing vests the footage of which will be scrutinised, only then can judgement be made.

Genuine question: when the other posters provided context to the situation and asked where you got your information, were those comments unworthy of a genuine response from you? I’m only asking because I noticed your only response was to sidestep and speak on what you perceive to be bullying. I’m just curious as to why you chose not to address those comments. I assume you have a good reason, and with this being a discussion forum I would love to know them if you’d like to share.