Do the pros of sending tanks to Ukraine outweigh the cons?

I think we’ve only got a couple of hundred tanks, all of which are pretty old so I’m not sure what condition they’re in. It was decided years ago that any future wars would be cyber wars. I assume that Germany, having, unlike us, borders with other countries, feel that their tanks are needed to protect them. But that’s me probably putting two and two together and making five.

By the way, why on earth is the under investigation disgraced former PM Johnson swanning around in Ukraine again lapping up the adulation?

Maybee&). The day of the tank is fast drawing to a close. They are slowly moving targets for battlefield drones and only useful in places like Ukraine because the Russian army and equipment is so outdated. They are having to buy ther drones in from iran and North Korea, a gathering of the pariahs of the world.

The tanks being refused access to Ukraine are not German army tanks, but tanks made in Germany, but sold to other countries like Poland, with a clause in the sales agreement that they can only be used defensively within the purchasing countries borders.

Thanks MOnica. I hadn’t realised that. A sensible clause made when no one foresaw what was going to happens. Difficult.

Totally correct M0nica

I have just found the link below. It puts what I have said above more clearly and specifically and with better corrobarative detail than I have given.

news.sky.com/story/how-faster-deadlier-tanks-could-turn-the-tide-in-the-ukraine-war-12791057

Providing tanks, weapons, military training, etc, etc, will extend the war, leading to even more lost and ruined lives and destruction of vital infrastructure and the natural environment. The only people who will ultimately benefit will be arms manufacturers - as they always do when there is armed conflict. They made a fortune out of the invasion of Iraq, and millions of dollars meant for the re-building of Iraq's ruined infrastructure and businesses went missing too. The invasion resulted in a state of political and economic chaos, with violence between various armed factions continuing to this day. Ditto Libya.

It is an unpopular view I know but my understanding is that there was some sort of an agreement that Ukraine would not become part of NATO and that no steps would be taken to encourage it to seek membership. The Ministry of Defence's own website reports that in 2015 there was a deployment of UK armed forces in Ukraine for the purpose of training the Ukrainian armed forces.

As with all wars, it is the ordinary people who suffer on both sides. Providing more and more weapons to Ukraine will only escalate an already dangerous situation.

I don't see the Ukraine/Russia situation as in any way akin to what happened in Germany where a power mad, deranged man used the underlying frustration and dissatisfaction of the majority population to scapegoat and dehumanise already victimised groups within the German population, leading ultimately to the systematic murder of large numbers of not soldiers but defenceless men, women and children.

As with Iraq, there are virtually no mainstream media voices to express anything other than support for this ever-expanding Ukrainian military operation.

The UK has many very serious issues to deal with - a crisis situation across all of our public services, a government that cannot be trusted to behave ethically or effectively, a care crisis which the government had long ago promised to deal with as a matter of urgency, many families facing extreme hardship and living in seriously sub-standard accommodation, etc. etc. We are spending millions of pounds to ensure the continuance of a bloody war that is destroying Russian and Ukrainian lives, rather than trying to encourage some sort of compromise, with the hope that it will lead towards peace. We involve ourselves in these wars but leave a trail of chaos and misery behind us. We have not fulfilled our obligations towards those UK-supporting Afghan people left in Afghanistan fearing for their lives- nor have we fulfilled the promise to provide adequate accommodation for those few Afghan people who did manage to get out.

What compromise do you think should be brought into effect Eloethan?
Would that compromise mean Ukraine giving over part of its territory to Russia?
That may be acceptable to you, but probably not to most Ukrainians.
Which part of the the UK would you be willing to away if we were invaded by an aggressive bully intent on occupying the UK?
For compromise read appeasement.
Appeasement never works. If it did, Russia would have been satisfied with Crimea.

M0nica

I have just found the link below. It puts what I have said above more clearly and specifically and with better corrobarative detail than I have given.

news.sky.com/story/how-faster-deadlier-tanks-could-turn-the-tide-in-the-ukraine-war-12791057

We see from this report that 1500 Russian tanks have been destroyed by Ukraine, that’s highly unlikely it probably includes armored cars and other vehicles. Modern tanks are better protected but not invulnerable to modern missiles, if Ukraine has destroyed even 500 heavy tanks it shows the scale of arms supply that is going to be needed.

At least now Germany aren’t going to stand in the way of Poland sending tanks.

Thanks MOnica for your sensible input. I was really asking what the Russians in Ukraine were wanting and you took the trouble to answer. At no time did I say I supported Putin. Who would? Some posters don’t read very well, though.

Eloethan The Ukraine has already said that it will agree to not become part of NATO.

Russia is an aggressor determined to rebuild the old Russian empire. It will not stop at Ukraine. If it gets UKraine, or even some of Ukraine, it will move on. It is already supporting, training and supplying dissident groups in Moldavia and Georgia, and has turned Belorus into effectively a client state. Poland knows that it is on the lsit, which is why it is offering Ukraine so much support.

There are a lot of parallels between the Putin regime and Hitler regim. Hitler invaded and occupied, Normay, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, parts then all of France under the Vichy regime (Belorus equivalent), Poland, Austria etc etc. yes it had a terrible and vile regime behind it, which is a lot worse than anything Putin can think of, but do not let that hide the fact that Hitler's first and main aim was to invade and occupy a huge area of Europe to form a German Empire. That is exactly what Putin is doing.

We tried appeasement in the late 1930s. Look where that got us.

At last the whole of NATO including the US has agreed to send Tanks and other heavy weapons to drive Russia out. There is no way that Russia can match the combined firepower, Ukraine has plenty of manpower so Putin is going to have to back down.
We can only hope there are enough level headed people in Russia to convince him that he has had his day and back down.

Katie59

At last the whole of NATO including the US has agreed to send Tanks and other heavy weapons to drive Russia out. There is no way that Russia can match the combined firepower, Ukraine has plenty of manpower so Putin is going to have to back down.
We can only hope there are enough level headed people in Russia to convince him that he has had his day and back down.

Indeed.

I read of a US tank shipment. Well done them.

"The U.S. is now poised to send its top-of-the-line battle tank, the M-1 Abrams, to Ukraine after insisting for months that the tanks were too complex to operate and maintain, U.S. officials said Tuesday. However, officials said it would likely take months before Abrams tanks arrive in Ukraine."

To use these modern tanks effectively the crews need to be trained and enough fuel and other supplies organised. The Abrams tank uses 3 gallons of fuel per mile!.

It’s likely to be a couple of months before they reach the front line.

But in the meanwhile, the leopard tanks can be there within days and the British Challenger tanks within weeks.

The Ukrainians, unfortunately, now have a years experience of adapting to servicing and maintaining a huge variety of military equipment and their maintenance crews must by now be highly skilled and adaptable. I would think given a months training, or even several weeks, with online help from the donors of the equipment, they will soon be able to handle any tank from anywhere.

By coincidence there were 14 Challengers taking part in NATO exercises in Poland last year so they might not be far away. Some tanks can probably be deployed quickly to bolster defense, assembling a large force to drive Russia out will take longer.

We have 227 Challenger 2 tanks, a large number being mothballed, as yes we did expect future conflict to be more cyber.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2
At least they’re getting used.

I dont think there is any chance of Ukraine getting the 300 modern tanks they say they need. However now that Germany have given the ok for Leopards to be supplied and various countries chip in a few each they may well end up with about 100.

Ukraine will have been asking for more than they needed on the basis that they would never get the full number they asked for, no matter how high or low, so they asked for the most they could provide a justification for and look like getting about 100,

I am sure the Ukrainians are are sharing knowing little smiles and congratulating themselves on their success.

300 is a very modest number, even that is unlikely to drive Russia out.
To put it in perspective the US sent 1800 Abrams Tanks to kick Sadam Hussein out of Kuwait, probably overkill but they did win that war

But this situation is more complicated Katie59. NATO members are having to walk on eggshells in supplying Ukraine without giving Putin a reason, to say that the war is between Russia dn Nato or Russia and the US. Iraqis a vast counntry and, like Russia in Ukraine, the US went in to wipe out the existing government and replace it. Except of course the USA did what they said they would do.

Ukraine may be a large country, but the proportion of it occupied by Russia is relatively small, so huge numbers of tanks are not required. modern tanks are more sophisticated than those used in Iraq.

Tank v Tank is very similar NATO has mostly advanced tanks Russia has mostly older models but a lot of them.

The war is completely different, it’s an infantry war with hand to hand fighting, the numbers of tanks announced can only defend the line. There is of course a lot of infantry support weapons, artillery and missile protection arms promised as well.

The current aim is probably to increase the pressure so that Russia gives up, withdraws and Putin is replaced with a reasonable leader. Now that NATO is united we can only hope that will happen.

Russia is deemed to have the most technologically advanced and deadly MBT in the world - the Armata - but they don’t have many of them. They seem to have been concentrating on exporting them rather than buying them for their own forces. They scaled back the number they ordered for their own forces to 132 and concentrated on upgrading existing tanks. How many Armata they will be able - or more importantly, prepared - to put in the field with attendant fuel and back up supplies is questionable. In order to step up production now, they would have to import key components they can’t produce themselves and sanctions are biting.

We have an aggressor on our doorstep, and we should have learned our lesson last time - appeasement doesn’t work, especially when dealing with an ideologically driven aggressor.

There is little doubt that Ukraine is fighting a war by-proxy for Europe and NATO, and unfortunately that makes us responsible to ensure Zelensky has the tools to achieve pushing back the Russian aggressor to his borders and keep him there.

I would much prefer this settled by dialogue, which of course will eventually come to that, but Putin will not be in that place, until he understands that he cannot win.

The danger of course is that Putin May well decide to take on NATO, but at the moment I see little evidence that this will be the case as he has yet to achieve anything terribly significant in Ukraine, after his initial onslaught.

Ukraine now needs to prepare for what will undoubtedly be a spring advance by Russia. The tanks will help.