Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

I have never expressed those views.

I do think, however, that transpeople asking for access to women’s spaces via self-id will do damage to all transpeople, not because I think that all transpeople are criminals, but because giving open access to men will inevitably give access to the criminally inclined, who, like Isla Bryson, are probably no more trans than I am.

I also think that so long as trans supporters shout over anyone who tries to make that point and accuses them of saying and thinking things they do not, there will be little progress made. I think the IB case has thrown this into relief, and it will now be much more difficult to claim that can come of a blanket TWAW policy, as it has been proven otherwise. That’s good, IMO, as the whole debate can calm down when that is taken out of the equation, and other issues may be able to be discussed.

VS
How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?

You keep saying that, but they aren’t held responsible for the behaviour of others except in your eyes.
The minority are held responsible for the impact on the perception of TW, not on the behaviour of any of them.

The minority are responsible for the concerns that have been raised.

The minority (along with TRA) are responsible for making everyone aware in ways that they were not previously,

that you cannot change sex
that you cannot distinguish between trans who’s ‘authentic selves’ are not harmful and those who are and therefore, it is reasonable to put protections in place
that those TW who see females as having no rights to which males are not entitled just by self ID are the TW who are causing the problems for all trans

Strangest of all, people are now inventing words to try show they can tell the difference between the TW who have caused the problems and TW who until then went mostly unnoticed.
Words like ‘fake’ . Evidently according to those who decided on that word, all TW who lie, cheat or harm females aren’t real TW at all. I think you first used the word ‘fake’ VS so how do you tell which are real and which are fake in advance?
If you shared that snippet if your wisdom . . .

Bit I am very happy you agree

Because holding innocent people in any way accountable for criminal behaviour is not justifiable at all. Saying criminals do reputational damage to all trans people is an awful view. Expecting them to denounce criminal behaviour in a public way individually or by electing a spokesperson is just unfair and unreasonable.

All views expressed on this thread btw

I feel we have really made some progress, thank you

No, I have read all the conversation. I’m just not following your thread . Or maybe mine.

Where have I lost the thread, please? I’m not saying I haven’t - it’s been a long day - but I can’t see the missing end.

Doodledog

*The public perception of trans people should not be altered by a criminals behaviour or do you not agree doodledog*

I agree. Why wouldn’t I?

But my perception of criminals is that they would happily use any loopholes they can find that allow them access to their victims, so those loopholes should not be opened. They are not being taken away - just the request to have them opened should be denied.

Then I'm not sure why you take issue with what I'm saying, take it up with the nobodies I responded too instead of telling me it didn't happen

Maybe you just missed a large part of the conversation

Doodledog

*How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?*

You could use simple English - we all understand that. The point is that nobody is holding a minority responsible. We are asking a minority, in return for legislation that specifically protects them from discrimination, to acknowledge that some of the things they are asking for are detrimental to a majority group (women) and to accept that they can’t have them. It’s called compromise.

What is it that you think is wrong or unreasonable about that, VS?

Difficult to discuss if you have lost track of your own point doodledog in the last paragraph*

Do you need me to quote more comments or do you acknowledge that several posters on this thread are not nobody and have in fact expressed that?

The public perception of trans people should not be altered by a criminals behaviour or do you not agree doodledog

I agree. Why wouldn’t I?

But my perception of criminals is that they would happily use any loopholes they can find that allow them access to their victims, so those loopholes should not be opened. They are not being taken away - just the request to have them opened should be denied.

Sorry and Smileless 2012 also did not agree that criminals do reputational damage to the minority group they belong too (or claim to belong too) either

I think that's it

I know galaxy and ,smileless often disagree with me but I do respect their principles on that one

You are now saying that trans people must do x in return for legislation to protect them.

What is x in this equation?

The legislation you want removed is in schools, minors are not asking you for anything
I’m not sure I understand this.

Trans people are protected under the equality act

Women are protected under the equality act

What you should be asking for is organisations to interpret existing legislation correctly
Are these three related points, even though they are in separate paragraphs? I’m not sure how you can tell people what we should be asking for - people will ask for what they want, not what someone tells them they want. Unless you are agreeing that people can have ideas about what they want planted in their heads? In which case we agree. I think that children in particular can be very susceptible to that, particularly at times of their lives when they are confused or feeling vulnerable. That is why I don’t approve of affirmation in schools.

Just because a few trans people are asking for something that most would agree is unreasonable doesn't mean trans people who are not asking for that deserve to have protections removed
Again, nobody is saying they should. Which protections do you think people are asking to be removed? People are asking for women not to have their protections removed, not transpeople. This will curtail the actions of some transpeople in a small way, but if they genuinely ‘feel like women’ they will surely understand?

That is not how human rights work
And nor is it what anyone is asking for.

Mollygo

VS

A trans rapist should do no reputational damage to transgender people trying to live their lives.
Any trans or TRA or their supporters should do no reputational damage to transgender people trying to live their lives.
Unfortunately, there has been so much reputational damage caused by those who see themselves in the right,
by bearing banners about beheading females,
by issuing death threats to females, or
by insisting their ‘authentic self’ means they can rape as a man then demand to be imprisoned as a woman.
In these circumstances, the rapist (who has to be male) is doing harm to females and reputational damage to ALL trans.
I might add that I, and others have pointed out for a long time, the damage that violent, lying and cheating trans have been causing to the public perception of ALL trans. Glad you’ve finally caught up VS.

Here is one of quite a few

I think I only remember galaxy disagreeing with allowing a rapist to do reputational damage to ordinary every day trans people

This is nonsense

The public perception of trans people should not be altered by a criminals behaviour or do you not agree doodledog?

I’ll assume you are talking to Galaxy there, then Doodledog? The one that first brought up the idea that the complexity wasn’t being appreciated.

How ironic.

No. I was talking to the person to whom Galaxy was responding. The person who started the sloganeering on this thread with ‘you are all on the wrong side of history’, and who followed it up with a cliche-ridden post made up of meaningless slogans. You.

Mollygo

AGAA4 and Doodledog, thanks for your answers and the reminder for those who need it, that condemning the activities of harmful (now referred to by some as ‘fake’) trans and TRA, does not in any way mean that people do not maintain a live and let live attitude to most trans.

A reminder once again that the cheating, lying, misrepresenting and violent TW are at the root of all the current pressure to retain safe spaces, single sex provision and sex segregated sport.

VS put
Did the trans people vanish when I wasn't looking?
A reminder perhaps that the damage done by some TW and the TRA and those who refuse to condemn their antics, will mean that it will be a long time before trans who just want to get on with their lives as they were allowed to before, will be able, if ever to do that again.

Let's not twist words. There're several othe comments I can go back and quote

Besides

You are now saying that trans people must do x in return for legislation to protect them.

The legislation you want removed is in schools, minors are not asking you for anything

Trans people are protected under the equality act

Women are protected under the equality act

What you should be asking for is organisations to interpret existing legislation correctly

Just because a few trans people are asking for something that most would agree is unreasonable doesn't mean trans people who are not asking for that deserve to have protections removed

That is not how human rights work

How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?

You could use simple English - we all understand that. The point is that nobody is holding a minority responsible. We are asking a minority, in return for legislation that specifically protects them from discrimination, to acknowledge that some of the things they are asking for are detrimental to a majority group (women) and to accept that they can’t have them. It’s called compromise.

What is it that you think is wrong or unreasonable about that, VS?

AGAA4

VS that needs a thread of its
own. Just confuses this issue.

OP changed it

Not I

Maybe they will respond and you can ask them?

VS that needs a thread of its
own. Just confuses this issue.

Codswallop?
Nonsense?
Ridiculous?
A very silly thing to say?

Not what I would call rude, just honest

How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?

You keep throwing at me even though you know I don't agree in the hope of a reaction and then complain when you get one

It's very predictable

VioletSky

You keep saying that Mollygo

But it is still utter rubbish

Wow, and this from the person who keeps saying be kind.🤣🤣🤣

You keep saying that VS, but my text carries more truth about trans than yours ever does.

You keep saying that Mollygo

But it is still utter rubbish

AGAA4

VS no transpeople haven't disappeared. They are getting on with their lives in their preferred gender. I think many people like me have a 'live and let live' attitude to everyone who lives a life that doesn't harm others.
This thread is about a transwoman who raped 2 women and was then sent to a women's prison.
I haven't seen any posts that want to see transwoman vanish.

The subject has changed to a petition to remove LGBT policy from schools

AGAA4 and Doodledog, thanks for your answers and the reminder for those who need it, that condemning the activities of harmful (now referred to by some as ‘fake’) trans and TRA, does not in any way mean that people do not maintain a live and let live attitude to most trans.

A reminder once again that the cheating, lying, misrepresenting and violent TW are at the root of all the current pressure to retain safe spaces, single sex provision and sex segregated sport.

VS put
Did the trans people vanish when I wasn't looking?
A reminder perhaps that the damage done by some TW and the TRA and those who refuse to condemn their antics, will mean that it will be a long time before trans who just want to get on with their lives as they were allowed to before, will be able, if ever to do that again.

AGAA4

VS no transpeople haven't disappeared. They are getting on with their lives in their preferred gender. I think many people like me have a 'live and let live' attitude to everyone who lives a life that doesn't harm others.
This thread is about a transwoman who raped 2 women and was then sent to a women's prison.
I haven't seen any posts that want to see transwoman vanish.

Thank you AGAA4. I know it keeps being said, and believe me it's tedious to have to keep saying it, but I have never seen anyone on here (or in 'real life', for that matter) who want to see any harm come to transpeople.

What people want is for transpeople to be accepted as transpeople. To live how they like, and to do so happily. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do so whilst still using the facilities and living within the rules that apply to their sex. Not out of discrimination, but because they have the bodies that align with their sex.

As far as I can see, that wouldn't make a massive difference. It would mean competing against people of their sex in sport and in areas where women suffer discrimination to the point where categories have been created to ensure fairness. It would mean using toilet facilities that allow for men to pee standing up and women to deal with periods with dignity, and using changing rooms which are designed to keep the sexes apart to free women from the male gaze and minimise the risk of assault. It would mean choosing careers that do not involve intimate contact with women (ie the vast majority of occupations) or being prepared to declare their sex if not, and if admitted to a hospital, prison or refuge being prepared to be expected to share space with others of their sex.

There will be a few things I've missed, but on the whole that doesn't seem too terrible a list of constraints in return for acceptance of something that is incomprehensible to many, if not most of the rest of the population. It would be seen as a gesture of good faith if the vast majority of transpeople (ie the non-dangerous, law-abiding ones) showed that they understood the fears of women (and the men who support feminism) and took them on board. I realise that not everyone agrees, but I would approve of different rules for surgically transitioned transpeople, as they have (a) shown a genuine commitment to the change, so are not using it as a means to get access to vulnerable women, and (b) their bodies are no longer equipped in the same way as the rest of their sex. Transwomen can't stand up to pee, for instance. Not only that, the hormone changes will lessen the chance of their being sexually aggressive.

According to India Willoughby on QT last night, transpeople make up 0.5% of the population - which other tiny minority of that size gets the protections given to transpeople, yet still claims to be the 'most marginalised group in society'?

And yes, Galaxy. I think that tighter control over medicating children, and of encouraging them to think in terms of changing their bodies can only be a good thing. With adults, I think that they should have autonomy over their bodies, but that radical changes should not be allowed without rigorous psychological assessment.

If medications are harmful then yes I would be happy if they are removed or have tighter controls, in the same way as I was relieved when women took action against the vaginal mesh issue.

VS no transpeople haven't disappeared. They are getting on with their lives in their preferred gender. I think many people like me have a 'live and let live' attitude to everyone who lives a life that doesn't harm others.
This thread is about a transwoman who raped 2 women and was then sent to a women's prison.
I haven't seen any posts that want to see transwoman vanish.

VioletSky

You cannot justify your views

It's that simple

Without accountability and responsibility there is no justification

This is your religion, your great omnipotent belief that only harms and never helps but that's OK because presumably there is a utopia at the end where trans people all went poof and stopped existing by force of divine will

*sigh

As I said, all take

Rejoice that services are lost, that medications can't be prescribed and fight to take away anti bullying policies...

Give nothing back

Claim that makes them right

Did the trans people vanish when I wasn't looking?