Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

we have seen how groups have been discriminated against in the past by holding them responsible for actions of individuals,

Now we are seeing that whole groups of transgender people are having their lives impacted by the actions of TRA *groups and ‘fake trans’ or trans whose ‘authentic selves’ who belong to a group that believes they are allowed to cheat, lie and attack females.
They are the ones at the root of the discrimination you keep mentioning VS (you don’t have to answer), not feminists, with whatever letters you choose to add.
Until the actions of this group of ill-intentioned TW and their TRA group supporters brought transgender to the public notice by their mean, cheating and misogynistic actions, who caused trans people the problems they now face?

It concerns me that, not only have these two groups ruined the lives of many trans, but also
they are supported by people who refuse to condemn the actions of these two groups
and accuse anyone who dares point out the damage these groups are doing, of discriminating against all trans.
Which is nonsense.

The only person who has been accused of homophobia on this thread or others is me

How on earth anyone ever came to that conclusion I don't know but I won't ask what twisted interpretation of my words led there, I don't want to know the person who said it.

But I was young in the 90s and I remember my friends finally standing up and coming out and how beautiful amd freeing that was. I also remember the push back and the absolute awful things people said back then. If any gay person committed any sort of crime it was used against all gay people. People didn't want us in communal changing spaces and public toilets and saw usbas some sort of threat.

Now trans people are being held responsible for crimes they did not commit so yes it does remind me of how things were back then and it really shocks me.

As every person I've spoken to on this thread has been entirely accepting towards gay people so obviously were accepting back then... I'm just surprised the way trans people are supposed to publicly denounce or apologise for criminal behaviour they aren't responsible for.

Trans people are seen as a threat in changing spaces and public bathrooms and gekd responsible for crimes they didnt commit.

I remember how that felt

The comparisons I draw are strong

I'm a similar age to you VS and I can't remember feeling hostile towards gay people at all. In fact in the 90s I lived next door to a gay couple who were older than me and it was just accepted as normal. This was in a large, mixed town though. So maybe there were and are regional differences but even my Gran had gay friends (it was very hush hush as they were 'older')

I don't expect you were hostile to gay people Jane or anyone here...

But people were

I never came out to my own family because of their attitudes. My aunt thought gay men were pedophiles and unsafe around boys

It was awful

I'm not saying people weren't homophobic btw just thinking of our own peer group. I'm not even transphobic though, despite what others may draw from my posts

your family were as dysfunctional as mine though, weren't they? I remember being taught to be quite cruel about other people (generally around how they looked rather than their sexuality) and it was only when I met my husband and he said I was unkind about other people, what exactly did I feel insecure about that I started to consider how I was about other people myself.

Yes, lots and lots of counselling to undo Amy learned behaviour

I don't react well to having my words twisted though, It's a tough one

In real life easy, it doesn't seem to happen, I get on with everyone and its a strength lol

Second trans person approved for move to women’s prison

news.sky.com/story/fresh-trans-prisoner-row-as-girls-stalker-approved-for-move-to-womens-jail-12797405

Stalked a 13 year old whilst male.

lol typical passive aggressive response

I was having flings with women in the nineties, none of this reminds me of what was happening back then. Well other than that there were a few idiot men wondering around saying they were a lesbian on the inside. We laughed at those men as it was a way to diffuse that homophobia. Transmen are welcome in any female services, it would be incredibly dangerous for them to be in Male prisons for example, it is men who are are not welcome in womens services.

Jaxjacky

Second trans person approved for move to women’s prison

news.sky.com/story/fresh-trans-prisoner-row-as-girls-stalker-approved-for-move-to-womens-jail-12797405

Stalked a 13 year old whilst male.

I've posted a couple of links to this charmer, who may identify as a transwoman, but still remains male. You can change your gender identity but not your sex.

The only person who has been accused of homophobia on this thread or others is me
No, that is not true. We are constantly reminded of Section 28, and of the 1970s, (despite that being 50 years ago) and how people were phobic about gay people. This has happened over and over on many threads, including ones you've been on, so maybe you only notice insults when they are directed at you?
Comparisons are also made with racism (usually in the civil rights days in the US - another anachronistic and erroneous comparison).

How on earth anyone ever came to that conclusion I don't know but I won't ask what twisted interpretation of my words led there, I don't want to know the person who said it.
Well, the only way you will find out why it was said is by asking the person who said it. Walking away when you hear something you don't like might make life easier, but it's not very good for self-reflection.

But I was young in the 90s and I remember my friends finally standing up and coming out and how beautiful amd freeing that was. I also remember the push back and the absolute awful things people said back then. If any gay person committed any sort of crime it was used against all gay people. People didn't want us in communal changing spaces and public toilets and saw usbas some sort of threat.
I think all of us remember when gay people were demonised. Many of us are able to remember Section 28, and when AIDS was known as the Gay Plague. That doesn't mean that we supported any of it, or that we didn't have gay friends. The law of averages suggests that there will be gay people posting on this thread, and others who define as straight but have had gay experiences. You will not be not alone in that, either.

Now trans people are being held responsible for crimes they did not commit so yes it does remind me of how things were back then and it really shocks me.
No. Transpeople are not being held responsible for crimes they did not commit. What people are saying is that men are committing crimes whilst claiming to be transpeople. That is not the same thing.

As a consequence of the fact that some men fake trans status to gain access to vulnerable women, society can react one of two ways. We can either protect women and insist on sex-based segregation when women are vulnerable, or we can say that the feelings of men who want to be women override concern for female safety. I would prefer the former, as the law exists to protect the innocent.

As every person I've spoken to on this thread has been entirely accepting towards gay people so obviously were accepting back then... I'm just surprised the way trans people are supposed to publicly denounce or apologise for criminal behaviour they aren't responsible for.
I agree.
However, I don't link the two things. What has acceptance of gay people got to do with what anyone expects of trans people? Nothing. It is this insistence on linking views about trans people in the 2020s with views on gay people in the 1970s (which were not even held by those on this thread) that is in question.

Also, it is not specific criminal acts that anyone is asking transpeople to apologise for. You have got the wrong end of that stick, I think. What many would like to see is an admission that there are men who are using the cover of trans status to gain access to women, and to benefit their lives in other ways, eg by having an 'easier' time in a women's jail. Such an admission, and a common-sense, solutions-based approach to dealing with that would go a long way to helping the trans cause.

Trans people are seen as a threat in changing spaces and public bathrooms and gekd responsible for crimes they didnt commit.
No. Transpeople are not seen as responsible for crimes they didn't commit. They are seen as potentially being men who want to access female spaces for sexual gratification. Many identify as 'lesbian males', (aka heterosexual men) and for various reasons a lot of women do not want them in changing spaces and public bathrooms around teenage girls and other women who are physically weaker than they are. In the same way as most non-trans heterosexual men are not a threat to women in changing rooms etc, they should not be allowed in, as there are some of their number who will be dangerous. That is simply equality, and non-discrimination.

I remember how that felt
How what felt? What crimes were you accused of? Obviously you don't need to go into detail, but as you work with children I assume that they weren't sexual in nature? Or that if they were you were completely exonerated. As would most innocent people be.

The comparisons I draw are strong
Again, difficult to comment without knowing what you mean.

Good post Doodledog

Trans people are seen as a threat in changing spaces and public bathrooms and gekd responsible for crimes they didnt commit.
(Actually, it’s only TW, not all trans.)

And this perception of trans has been caused by the actions of those (now described by some as fake,) TW who caused the public image of trans, particularly TW to be damaged and made people, even those who previously didn’t even know such a thing existed, suspicious of all trans.

No one has come up with a way of removing this damage. It certainly isn’t helped by the continuing actions of TRA, or the occurrence of TIM being given jobs specifically for females or being allowed to self ID and demand places in female prisons.
It is unfair if all trans (TW) are seen as a threat but I’m not even sure that that’s true.
Despite what was said at the top of this post,
Most trans despise the activities of the harmful trans and aren’t any more visible than they were before.
Most people feel for the notoriety innocent trans have had thrust upon them and don’t condemn any of them except those harmful trans.

Another good post Mollygo

And think back to the damage that was done Doodledog when AIDS was known was as the gay plague. Promiscuous heterosexuals, not practising safe sex by using condoms, and heterosexual drug addicts sharing dirty needles, thought they were immune because they weren't gay, only they were wrong weren't they.

Misinformation is a dangerous thing especially when it's 'out there' because it fits a particular agenda. Saying that trans women are women is another example, especially when an intact male claims to be a woman because he feels like a woman and as a result has the opportunity to access women only spaces.

Some people got AIDS because they didn't think they could because they weren't gay. Women are potentially being put at risk because they're expected to accept than an intact male, who feels like a woman, will never be a threat.

I'm not happy, in terms of compassion, getting on, acceptance of difference, to conflate transwomen who are gender choice women and living as decent human beings

With those transwomen who seek to offend and invade womens spaces in order to transgress and attack.

There's a couple of transwomen who change in our changing rooms at the gym. They use the cubicles. I have not heard objections and that's because they do not threaten nor seek to offend.

I would report anyone who sought to intimidate for whatever reason in our changing rooms whoever they be.

I've said this before other thread: I have no time for men who threaten or abuse: I am just coming out of an abusive marriage with a straight man and am on "high alert", believe me.

I am so sad that this issue is so divisive. I am sure there is middle ground: but to do this I have accepted that there are some people who were born, who feel without doubt, they are "in the wrong gender bodies" and are often the target of hate or fear.

There will be women unable to use those changing rooms because of the presence of men. You will never know anything about them because they will be too scared, too intimidated or too polite to say so. They will be excluded from those spaces.

I was thinking just now of the debt we owe to women who have bravely spoken on this issue for years, often at great personal cost.
JK Rowling
Kathleen Stock
Julie Bindel
Alison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Janice Turner
Suzanne Moore
I will have forgotten many I am sure, but they have been astounding.
Oh and Justine Roberts for giving women a place to talk.

Galaxy

I was thinking just now of the debt we owe to women who have bravely spoken on this issue for years, often at great personal cost.
JK Rowling
Kathleen Stock
Julie Bindel
Alison Bailey
Maya Forstater
Janice Turner
Suzanne Moore
I will have forgotten many I am sure, but they have been astounding.
Oh and Justine Roberts for giving women a place to talk.

Thanks for the reminder.

Rosie Duffield deserves a mention too.

Wyllow, I completely take your point, but at the same time, please remember that nobody is conflating people like the 'decent' transwomen you mention with criminals. We really aren't doing that, any more than the law conflates decent men like our (or most of our) sons and husbands with rapists or voyeurs, yet they are not allowed in women's spaces either, because some of them might be.

It's the same thing.

Yes I knew I would miss someone.
Joanna Cherry too.

"What has acceptance of gay people got to do with what anyone expects of trans people? Nothing. It is this insistence on linking views about trans people in the 2020s with views on gay people in the 1970s (which were not even held by those on this thread) that is in question."

Actually in my quaker meeting, I talked at length to one of our gay women, and that is exactly how she sees attitudes to Transpeople. It's exactly what happened to gays who are just a bit older than her in the 1980's.

Sorry - I wasn't being picky .

I just feel very sorry for RD, as she's been treated really badly.

Willow, your discussion was with one woman whose views I respect. That doesn’t mean I share them, or that they’re representative of the majority.
I could reflect on what it felt like to be the team feminist in the late 70’s early 80’s when feminists were identifying domestic abuse as a safeguarding issue not ‘just a domestic’. Marginalised, accused of bigotry.