Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

I dont think it can be a simple process though, it appears that when we are talking about children with gender dysphoria you are frequently dealing with a number of other factors, childhood trauma, autism in some cases, and so on. That would require a range of support I suspect.

Galaxy

Everything is reduced to 'sides' now, not just in this debate. If you think this you must think that, I am sure I have done it myself but it doesnt help.

No, and when people are being accused of not seeing complexity it is particularly ironic.

I am not on the side of the Tories (although I would be within my rights if I were - they are not a proscribed party), but that doesn't mean that I automatically write off anything that is said by someone whose views on other things are not in line with my own. Few of us are completely balanced on topics like this, but I do aim to at least listen to different points of view, and not write them off if I agree with them.

I think that EW talked a lot of sense on this topic last night. That doesn't mean that I support her views on other things, nor that I 'need to examine my life choices' - an idea which sounds vaguely threatening and totalitarian.

I completely agreed with the Tory PM who introduced the legislation around gay marriage, whilst many of his own party objected, so what?

Volver
The Nicola Sturgeon thing? Twisting her words. But I'm sure you'll say you're not and she's no longer a "trans ally". Maybe I'll join in again when you stop all being so bl**dy superior. (This, from the expert!🤣🤣)

Right now, I'm sick fed up of the whole lot of you.
Och, you’re sounding a wee bit thrawn this morning Volver dear.

Which words did I twist? Where have I said NS is or isn’t a ‘trans ally’?
I did say that she didn’t want to answer a particular question, but I watched her avoiding giving an answer and trying to divert the question to something she wanted to answer. I didn’t read someone else’s version of the story.
How is that twisting?

Hi Doodledog I think that the knotty resource question is actually central to many things we discuss here.

For example, although we will never budge those who choose to be totally hateful and aggressive in their case, I suspect there are a large group who, if they had had access to discussions, support, and so on, would feel happier about their individual paths and consequently their political paths.

Well ideally for the younger group, (under 18's) you'd have a multi agency approach but at the decision making end it has to be one agency.

One of the reasons I support self ID as things stand, is because of resources. If there were proper, supportive resources for a two year GRC certificate then I would see it differently. One of the big failings of the political narrative is that we don't focus on resources.

And by resources, btw, I include resources for trans women who are in need of shelter to be accommodated safely within women's resources without "Taking away" or being perceived as "taking away" from provision. And no, I dont think any shelter resources of any kind can be open to those (whatever gender) who threaten or seek to exploit, encourage hatred. A natal born women who arrived at a shelter and behaved in such as way is subject to the law like every one of us. and it does happen in womens prisons, certainly. Women rape other women, attack, bully.

The figures for violent sexual assault are the last time I looked 97 % Male, of course some women bully etc, why would this mean we allow males into women spaces.

Galaxy Fri 03-Feb-23 08:19:04
Was I on the right side of history with puberty blockers and the tavistock then? Am I on the right side of history with male rapists in womens jails or is it perhaps more complex than slogans.

Doodledog Fri 03-Feb-23 10:04:37 No, and when people are being accused of not seeing complexity it is particularly ironic.

I’ll assume you are talking to Galaxy there, then Doodledog? The one that first brought up the idea that the complexity wasn’t being appreciated.

How ironic.

Thursday 18.41.36

Good post Doodledog

VioletSky

You cannot justify your views

It's that simple

Without accountability and responsibility there is no justification

This is your religion, your great omnipotent belief that only harms and never helps but that's OK because presumably there is a utopia at the end where trans people all went poof and stopped existing by force of divine will

*sigh

As I said, all take

Rejoice that services are lost, that medications can't be prescribed and fight to take away anti bullying policies...

Give nothing back

Claim that makes them right

Did the trans people vanish when I wasn't looking?

VS no transpeople haven't disappeared. They are getting on with their lives in their preferred gender. I think many people like me have a 'live and let live' attitude to everyone who lives a life that doesn't harm others.
This thread is about a transwoman who raped 2 women and was then sent to a women's prison.
I haven't seen any posts that want to see transwoman vanish.

If medications are harmful then yes I would be happy if they are removed or have tighter controls, in the same way as I was relieved when women took action against the vaginal mesh issue.

AGAA4

VS no transpeople haven't disappeared. They are getting on with their lives in their preferred gender. I think many people like me have a 'live and let live' attitude to everyone who lives a life that doesn't harm others.
This thread is about a transwoman who raped 2 women and was then sent to a women's prison.
I haven't seen any posts that want to see transwoman vanish.

Thank you AGAA4. I know it keeps being said, and believe me it's tedious to have to keep saying it, but I have never seen anyone on here (or in 'real life', for that matter) who want to see any harm come to transpeople.

What people want is for transpeople to be accepted as transpeople. To live how they like, and to do so happily. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do so whilst still using the facilities and living within the rules that apply to their sex. Not out of discrimination, but because they have the bodies that align with their sex.

As far as I can see, that wouldn't make a massive difference. It would mean competing against people of their sex in sport and in areas where women suffer discrimination to the point where categories have been created to ensure fairness. It would mean using toilet facilities that allow for men to pee standing up and women to deal with periods with dignity, and using changing rooms which are designed to keep the sexes apart to free women from the male gaze and minimise the risk of assault. It would mean choosing careers that do not involve intimate contact with women (ie the vast majority of occupations) or being prepared to declare their sex if not, and if admitted to a hospital, prison or refuge being prepared to be expected to share space with others of their sex.

There will be a few things I've missed, but on the whole that doesn't seem too terrible a list of constraints in return for acceptance of something that is incomprehensible to many, if not most of the rest of the population. It would be seen as a gesture of good faith if the vast majority of transpeople (ie the non-dangerous, law-abiding ones) showed that they understood the fears of women (and the men who support feminism) and took them on board. I realise that not everyone agrees, but I would approve of different rules for surgically transitioned transpeople, as they have (a) shown a genuine commitment to the change, so are not using it as a means to get access to vulnerable women, and (b) their bodies are no longer equipped in the same way as the rest of their sex. Transwomen can't stand up to pee, for instance. Not only that, the hormone changes will lessen the chance of their being sexually aggressive.

According to India Willoughby on QT last night, transpeople make up 0.5% of the population - which other tiny minority of that size gets the protections given to transpeople, yet still claims to be the 'most marginalised group in society'?

And yes, Galaxy. I think that tighter control over medicating children, and of encouraging them to think in terms of changing their bodies can only be a good thing. With adults, I think that they should have autonomy over their bodies, but that radical changes should not be allowed without rigorous psychological assessment.

AGAA4 and Doodledog, thanks for your answers and the reminder for those who need it, that condemning the activities of harmful (now referred to by some as ‘fake’) trans and TRA, does not in any way mean that people do not maintain a live and let live attitude to most trans.

A reminder once again that the cheating, lying, misrepresenting and violent TW are at the root of all the current pressure to retain safe spaces, single sex provision and sex segregated sport.

VS put
Did the trans people vanish when I wasn't looking?
A reminder perhaps that the damage done by some TW and the TRA and those who refuse to condemn their antics, will mean that it will be a long time before trans who just want to get on with their lives as they were allowed to before, will be able, if ever to do that again.

AGAA4

VS no transpeople haven't disappeared. They are getting on with their lives in their preferred gender. I think many people like me have a 'live and let live' attitude to everyone who lives a life that doesn't harm others.
This thread is about a transwoman who raped 2 women and was then sent to a women's prison.
I haven't seen any posts that want to see transwoman vanish.

The subject has changed to a petition to remove LGBT policy from schools

You keep saying that Mollygo

But it is still utter rubbish

VioletSky

You keep saying that Mollygo

But it is still utter rubbish

Wow, and this from the person who keeps saying be kind.🤣🤣🤣

You keep saying that VS, but my text carries more truth about trans than yours ever does.

Codswallop?
Nonsense?
Ridiculous?
A very silly thing to say?

Not what I would call rude, just honest

How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?

You keep throwing at me even though you know I don't agree in the hope of a reaction and then complain when you get one

It's very predictable

VS that needs a thread of its
own. Just confuses this issue.

AGAA4

VS that needs a thread of its
own. Just confuses this issue.

OP changed it

Not I

Maybe they will respond and you can ask them?

How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?

You could use simple English - we all understand that. The point is that nobody is holding a minority responsible. We are asking a minority, in return for legislation that specifically protects them from discrimination, to acknowledge that some of the things they are asking for are detrimental to a majority group (women) and to accept that they can’t have them. It’s called compromise.

What is it that you think is wrong or unreasonable about that, VS?

Mollygo

AGAA4 and Doodledog, thanks for your answers and the reminder for those who need it, that condemning the activities of harmful (now referred to by some as ‘fake’) trans and TRA, does not in any way mean that people do not maintain a live and let live attitude to most trans.

A reminder once again that the cheating, lying, misrepresenting and violent TW are at the root of all the current pressure to retain safe spaces, single sex provision and sex segregated sport.

VS put
Did the trans people vanish when I wasn't looking?
A reminder perhaps that the damage done by some TW and the TRA and those who refuse to condemn their antics, will mean that it will be a long time before trans who just want to get on with their lives as they were allowed to before, will be able, if ever to do that again.

Let's not twist words. There're several othe comments I can go back and quote

Besides

You are now saying that trans people must do x in return for legislation to protect them.

The legislation you want removed is in schools, minors are not asking you for anything

Trans people are protected under the equality act

Women are protected under the equality act

What you should be asking for is organisations to interpret existing legislation correctly

Just because a few trans people are asking for something that most would agree is unreasonable doesn't mean trans people who are not asking for that deserve to have protections removed

That is not how human rights work

I’ll assume you are talking to Galaxy there, then Doodledog? The one that first brought up the idea that the complexity wasn’t being appreciated.

How ironic.

No. I was talking to the person to whom Galaxy was responding. The person who started the sloganeering on this thread with ‘you are all on the wrong side of history’, and who followed it up with a cliche-ridden post made up of meaningless slogans. You.

Mollygo

VS

A trans rapist should do no reputational damage to transgender people trying to live their lives.
Any trans or TRA or their supporters should do no reputational damage to transgender people trying to live their lives.
Unfortunately, there has been so much reputational damage caused by those who see themselves in the right,
by bearing banners about beheading females,
by issuing death threats to females, or
by insisting their ‘authentic self’ means they can rape as a man then demand to be imprisoned as a woman.
In these circumstances, the rapist (who has to be male) is doing harm to females and reputational damage to ALL trans.
I might add that I, and others have pointed out for a long time, the damage that violent, lying and cheating trans have been causing to the public perception of ALL trans. Glad you’ve finally caught up VS.

Here is one of quite a few

I think I only remember galaxy disagreeing with allowing a rapist to do reputational damage to ordinary every day trans people

This is nonsense

The public perception of trans people should not be altered by a criminals behaviour or do you not agree doodledog?

You are now saying that trans people must do x in return for legislation to protect them.

What is x in this equation?

The legislation you want removed is in schools, minors are not asking you for anything
I’m not sure I understand this.

Trans people are protected under the equality act

Women are protected under the equality act

What you should be asking for is organisations to interpret existing legislation correctly
Are these three related points, even though they are in separate paragraphs? I’m not sure how you can tell people what we should be asking for - people will ask for what they want, not what someone tells them they want. Unless you are agreeing that people can have ideas about what they want planted in their heads? In which case we agree. I think that children in particular can be very susceptible to that, particularly at times of their lives when they are confused or feeling vulnerable. That is why I don’t approve of affirmation in schools.

Just because a few trans people are asking for something that most would agree is unreasonable doesn't mean trans people who are not asking for that deserve to have protections removed
Again, nobody is saying they should. Which protections do you think people are asking to be removed? People are asking for women not to have their protections removed, not transpeople. This will curtail the actions of some transpeople in a small way, but if they genuinely ‘feel like women’ they will surely understand?

That is not how human rights work
And nor is it what anyone is asking for.

Sorry and Smileless 2012 also did not agree that criminals do reputational damage to the minority group they belong too (or claim to belong too) either

I think that's it

I know galaxy and ,smileless often disagree with me but I do respect their principles on that one