Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

paddyann54

Can I ask if any of you actually know anyone who has or is transitioning? If you do and I seriously doubt it, you might just might, see it all from a very different viewpoint.

Yes, but not one who'd been in prison for raping women, no, sorry.

Galaxy

Yes of course I do. How patronising you sound.
Do you know any detransitioners if so you might see it from a different point of view.
Oh and you do understand that there are gender critical transwomen and transmen or does that not fit with the narrative you have.

Galaxy may I suggest you go and repeatedly hit your head against a brick wall, it will be far more productive?
Anyone who has seen the distress and hopelessness of a detransitioner could surely not be so dismissive and cruel as paddyanne54 or Wyllow3 both of whom give the impression they have not one iota of compassion for people who have undergone irreversible sex reassignment surgery and now bitterly regret their mental health problems weren't addressed. As my dear mum used to say "none so blind as those who will not see" I'd be ashamed if I had no compassion for a man who regretted he'd had his penis inverted because he was assured it would cure all his ills!
One of the USA transgender surgeons is on video saying of transmen " if they regret and want breasts later they can go get some" For goodness' sake could it be any clearer?

Here we go again. Yes, I know trans and non-binary people.

Galaxy

Yes of course I do. How patronising you sound.
Do you know any detransitioners if so you might see it from a different point of view.
Oh and you do understand that there are gender critical transwomen and transmen or does that not fit with the narrative you have.

Exactly, Galaxy, but we’re not allowed to know anyone who is transitioning because it doesn’t fit their rhetoric.
The 23 year old detransitioner I know has a very different point of view now.

Mollygo

Galaxy

Yes of course I do. How patronising you sound.
Do you know any detransitioners if so you might see it from a different point of view.
Oh and you do understand that there are gender critical transwomen and transmen or does that not fit with the narrative you have.

Exactly, Galaxy, but we’re not allowed to know anyone who is transitioning because it doesn’t fit their rhetoric.
The 23 year old detransitioner I know has a very different point of view now.

They don't actually give a moment's thought to detransitioners. Along with the "Trans community" the usual attitude is "F*ck you* you were never True Trans Compassion, sympathy, empathy, three words they don't understand if they're not trans-centred.

Well India Willoughby surpassed any idiocy anyone could have expected! Has India always been this confused and deluded, even while male and fathering children, or did it coincide with the arrival of 'ladybrain' on transition?

paddyann

It's a bit:

My friend's brother's dog's uncle's owner is trans and they agree with every word I say

Which is a bit unlikely because you are not allowed to deviate 1 step from the script here without bringing down a tonne of wrath and will be told what you think even on facets you agree about

Well that's not true is it. I hold many different views to people on this thread am happy to search them up if it would help.

Ah, but at least nobody's told you that you are on the side of the rapists yet. But they will, if you hang around for a while. Such a measured debate, this is...

I just think believing all trans people hold the same view is quite weird.

Well nobody's said that, have they Galaxy? But like many other things in this debate you (plural) leap on a comment, twist it around and play the more thoughtful person, when what you're actually doing is misrepresenting the original commenter.

You're all on the wrong side of history and one day soon we'll all know that. Whether you all do, remains to be seen.

There seemed to be an implication that if we knew some transpeople that we would therefore change our views, but transpeople hold a range of views on this subject.
The wrong side of history, it just doesnt really look that way, many countries are backing away from social affirmation for children for example, so yes we will see.

Was I on the right side of history with puberty blockers and the tavistock then? Am I on the right side of history with male rapists in womens jails or is it perhaps more complex than slogans.

Perhaps it is more complex than "Robert Winston says you can't change sex so that's the end of it". Perhaps it's more complex than "Trans women should be sent to men's prison." Perhaps it's more complex than "You're not a real feminist".

Perhaps it's more complex than a lot of things you think are obvious. Perhaps you'll tell me you've never said any of those things. Perhaps you'll tell me I'm a destroyer of women's rights. Perhaps you'll never see how wrong you all are. Perhaps we should all just give up and leave you to it.

That's probably the best course of action, for sanity's sake.

Up to you volver obviously.

Now Rosie, (yesterday 23:15:49) you know very well that I have not given that impression, because you will find no evidence from any post I've ever made here to give it.

It would be totally against my nature to do so as well!

I hear your anger and frustration. Of course I have every sympathy for de-transitioners, why would I not?

volver

Perhaps it is more complex than "Robert Winston says you can't change sex so that's the end of it". Perhaps it's more complex than "Trans women should be sent to men's prison." Perhaps it's more complex than "You're not a real feminist".

Perhaps it's more complex than a lot of things you think are obvious. Perhaps you'll tell me you've never said any of those things. Perhaps you'll tell me I'm a destroyer of women's rights. Perhaps you'll never see how wrong you all are. Perhaps we should all just give up and leave you to it.

That's probably the best course of action, for sanity's sake.

A whole post of cliches there - well done! And anaphora too, with a tricolon thrown in for good measure . No substance though. Have you anything at all to add to this discussion? What do you think of NS's behaviour throughout the Isla Bryson case? I've been wondering about that, and haven't see you post your views.

As for the accusations of people missing the complexities - it's definitely more complex than 'the wrong side of history', 'in the wrong body', or 'the most marginalised group in society'. What do any of those things mean? Genuine question - any of them? Yet they are trotted out as though they are deep and meaningful 'truths' that make those who parrot them 'kind' and caring.

For me, the complexity comes from the fact that there are people involved in this (for want of a better word 'genuine' transpeople) who have, for whatever reason, joined the trend of believing that they will be happier 'living as' the opposite sex. This is not a debate for them. Their lives are being damaged by the behaviour of extremists, (arguably they were already damaged before they decided to 'transition') and those people are not being helped by any of this. I don't want those people, or the mixed up kids who are being 'affirmed' as trans as they grapple with the confusions of growing up, to be hurt. Yet if we insist that male/female is a matter of choice and trample over the rights of women we will all be hurt, IMO.

The whole postmodern truth-twisting is terrifying, and Trumpian.

Question Time last night was heartening, as the audience was clearly (and vocally) sick of hearing questions dodged and side-stepped (eg do you see the rapist at the centre of the debate as a man or a woman?), so that some of the panel could shift the discussion to one that suited their narrative. It was good to see people being allowed to express gender-critical views for a change, and Ella Whelan made a clear and uninterrupted point about the danger of forcing people to deny the evidence of their eyes. If we have to say things like 'she raped two women with her penis' where does it stop?

The past few years have been like living in a dystopian novel.

I am struck by one really important issue - unless you can afford to go private, there is such a paucity of resources for people of all ages, but particularly the young, there is virtually no access without impossibly long waits for the sort of counselling that will enable those in need to really properly talk things through and work out what's truly "right" for them.

The legal decision to limit what the Tavistock could do I agree with, but the ruling clearly said that resources should be made available for good decision making both for the individuals and those giving treatment. This has not happened. Cut backs on Mental Health have impacted heavily on gender services as well as other MH areas.

Personally I'd take the services out of MH as I'd rather see them not medicalised as "Mental Health" in terms of decision making, but this is a pretty moot discussion as the resources aren't there every which way.

Doodledog

volver

Perhaps it is more complex than "Robert Winston says you can't change sex so that's the end of it". Perhaps it's more complex than "Trans women should be sent to men's prison." Perhaps it's more complex than "You're not a real feminist".

Perhaps it's more complex than a lot of things you think are obvious. Perhaps you'll tell me you've never said any of those things. Perhaps you'll tell me I'm a destroyer of women's rights. Perhaps you'll never see how wrong you all are. Perhaps we should all just give up and leave you to it.

That's probably the best course of action, for sanity's sake.

A whole post of cliches there - well done! And anaphora too, with a tricolon thrown in for good measure . No substance though. Have you anything at all to add to this discussion? What do you think of NS's behaviour throughout the Isla Bryson case? I've been wondering about that, and haven't see you post your views.

As for the accusations of people missing the complexities - it's definitely more complex than 'the wrong side of history', 'in the wrong body', or 'the most marginalised group in society'. What do any of those things mean? Genuine question - any of them? Yet they are trotted out as though they are deep and meaningful 'truths' that make those who parrot them 'kind' and caring.

For me, the complexity comes from the fact that there are people involved in this (for want of a better word 'genuine' transpeople) who have, for whatever reason, joined the trend of believing that they will be happier 'living as' the opposite sex. This is not a debate for them. Their lives are being damaged by the behaviour of extremists, (arguably they were already damaged before they decided to 'transition') and those people are not being helped by any of this. I don't want those people, or the mixed up kids who are being 'affirmed' as trans as they grapple with the confusions of growing up, to be hurt. Yet if we insist that male/female is a matter of choice and trample over the rights of women we will all be hurt, IMO.

The whole postmodern truth-twisting is terrifying, and Trumpian.

Question Time last night was heartening, as the audience was clearly (and vocally) sick of hearing questions dodged and side-stepped (eg do you see the rapist at the centre of the debate as a man or a woman?), so that some of the panel could shift the discussion to one that suited their narrative. It was good to see people being allowed to express gender-critical views for a change, and Ella Whelan made a clear and uninterrupted point about the danger of forcing people to deny the evidence of their eyes. If we have to say things like 'she raped two women with her penis' where does it stop?

The past few years have been like living in a dystopian novel.

Show off.

Yes, you are right I'm sure because I have no idea what you are talking about, so you must be right, because obviously you have extensive knowledge of this topic. Because, after all. I'm just basing my point of view on the fact that I don't try in my own head to conflate puberty blockers with self ID, which, unfortunately, is what we're seeing across all the media at the moment. Trying to leverage some people's concern about children with giving other people some rights.

The Nicola Sturgeon thing? Twisting her words. But I'm sure you'll say you're not and she's no longer a "trans ally". Maybe I'll join in again when you stop all being so bl**dy superior. Right now, I'm sick fed up of the whole lot of you.

Which one of you was it in the yellow dress last night on BBCQT? You know, the one who said "why should society change when there are so few of you?"

If you are on the side of the Tories and of Ella Whelan, you really need to examine your life choices.

Aye, that's right Galaxy.

It's all just one big laugh and an opportunity to poke fun at those who disagree with you.

What japes.

Oh sorry am I not responding to those I disagree with appropriately. Am I supposed to say I am sick fed up of the whole lot of you is that the appropriate internet etiquette.

If you are on the side of the Tories and of Ella Whelan, you really need to examine your life choices.

Was that to me? Show me where I said I was 'on the side' of anyone? This is not a playground scuffle.

Everything is reduced to 'sides' now, not just in this debate. If you think this you must think that, I am sure I have done it myself but it doesnt help.

Wyllow3

I am struck by one really important issue - unless you can afford to go private, there is such a paucity of resources for people of all ages, but particularly the young, there is virtually no access without impossibly long waits for the sort of counselling that will enable those in need to really properly talk things through and work out what's truly "right" for them.

The legal decision to limit what the Tavistock could do I agree with, but the ruling clearly said that resources should be made available for good decision making both for the individuals and those giving treatment. This has not happened. Cut backs on Mental Health have impacted heavily on gender services as well as other MH areas.

Personally I'd take the services out of MH as I'd rather see them not medicalised as "Mental Health" in terms of decision making, but this is a pretty moot discussion as the resources aren't there every which way.

Wyllow, that is a good point, and I fear it will get lost on this thread - maybe start a new one?

Who should get to make decisions about individuals? I think that the law should be in the business of protecting everyone, so things like single sex spaces are the responsibility of the government, but there are so many people invested in the lives of individuals that it should maybe be streamlined? Teachers, social workers, MH services, GPs and so on - all coming from different perspectives, and there is a confused person stuck in the middle. Would it be a good idea to have a simpler process? Or would that put too much power in one lot of hands, and it's better to have different agencies with different outlooks?

I'm not being very coherent as I am thinking aloud whilst preparing for a meeting, so won't start a thread myself, but it's an interesting point for debate.