Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

The public perception of trans people should not be altered by a criminals behaviour or do you not agree doodledog

I agree. Why wouldn’t I?

But my perception of criminals is that they would happily use any loopholes they can find that allow them access to their victims, so those loopholes should not be opened. They are not being taken away - just the request to have them opened should be denied.

Doodledog

*How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?*

You could use simple English - we all understand that. The point is that nobody is holding a minority responsible. We are asking a minority, in return for legislation that specifically protects them from discrimination, to acknowledge that some of the things they are asking for are detrimental to a majority group (women) and to accept that they can’t have them. It’s called compromise.

What is it that you think is wrong or unreasonable about that, VS?

Difficult to discuss if you have lost track of your own point doodledog in the last paragraph*

Do you need me to quote more comments or do you acknowledge that several posters on this thread are not nobody and have in fact expressed that?

Doodledog

*The public perception of trans people should not be altered by a criminals behaviour or do you not agree doodledog*

I agree. Why wouldn’t I?

But my perception of criminals is that they would happily use any loopholes they can find that allow them access to their victims, so those loopholes should not be opened. They are not being taken away - just the request to have them opened should be denied.

Then I'm not sure why you take issue with what I'm saying, take it up with the nobodies I responded too instead of telling me it didn't happen

Maybe you just missed a large part of the conversation

Where have I lost the thread, please? I’m not saying I haven’t - it’s been a long day - but I can’t see the missing end.

No, I have read all the conversation. I’m just not following your thread . Or maybe mine.

Bit I am very happy you agree

Because holding innocent people in any way accountable for criminal behaviour is not justifiable at all. Saying criminals do reputational damage to all trans people is an awful view. Expecting them to denounce criminal behaviour in a public way individually or by electing a spokesperson is just unfair and unreasonable.

All views expressed on this thread btw

I feel we have really made some progress, thank you

VS
How best do I express to you that a minority group should not be held responsible for the behaviour of individuals?

You keep saying that, but they aren’t held responsible for the behaviour of others except in your eyes.
The minority are held responsible for the impact on the perception of TW, not on the behaviour of any of them.

The minority are responsible for the concerns that have been raised.

The minority (along with TRA) are responsible for making everyone aware in ways that they were not previously,

that you cannot change sex
that you cannot distinguish between trans who’s ‘authentic selves’ are not harmful and those who are and therefore, it is reasonable to put protections in place
that those TW who see females as having no rights to which males are not entitled just by self ID are the TW who are causing the problems for all trans

Strangest of all, people are now inventing words to try show they can tell the difference between the TW who have caused the problems and TW who until then went mostly unnoticed.
Words like ‘fake’ . Evidently according to those who decided on that word, all TW who lie, cheat or harm females aren’t real TW at all. I think you first used the word ‘fake’ VS so how do you tell which are real and which are fake in advance?
If you shared that snippet if your wisdom . . .

I have never expressed those views.

I do think, however, that transpeople asking for access to women’s spaces via self-id will do damage to all transpeople, not because I think that all transpeople are criminals, but because giving open access to men will inevitably give access to the criminally inclined, who, like Isla Bryson, are probably no more trans than I am.

I also think that so long as trans supporters shout over anyone who tries to make that point and accuses them of saying and thinking things they do not, there will be little progress made. I think the IB case has thrown this into relief, and it will now be much more difficult to claim that can come of a blanket TWAW policy, as it has been proven otherwise. That’s good, IMO, as the whole debate can calm down when that is taken out of the equation, and other issues may be able to be discussed.

Ah

Nevermind

You guys shouldn't say stuff if you are just going to take it back for one reason or another

We all know the truth

Is that to me?

I haven’t taken anything back. I do not think that anyone’s perception of transpeople should be affected by criminals, and I am not taking that back.

How many more times or ways can I say it?

Its partly the self ID issue in Scotland that has highlighted this issue, women have been banging on about men in womens prisons for years nobody gave a flying fig.

Can you imagine yourselves standing up in an assembly of young people and explaining why you voted to take away a policy designed to protect some of them?

Would you explain why you think that criminals like the one in the OP do repuational damage to all trans people (as evidenced throughout this thread) that they must publically denounce?

Would you explain that you have rejoiced in the loss of mental health and medical services for trans people without any safety net in place first as a win for GC femisism being right?

Would you explain how you believe no young person to have the ability to make decisions about medical treatment nor the parents who raised them so they must wait to transition until their bodies have fully expressed the gender the were assigned at birth which is irreversible?

Would you stand there and tell hundreds of young people they cannot change sex and will always be the gender they were assigned at birth?

Would you announce you will not use their pronouns?

How would you explain to them the points shared on this thread that you agree with is not bullying and harassment?

And if you would do none of the above, what business did you have signing that petition? Especially those who won't justify doing so

Could be you, could be me, it doesn’t matter because as you say VS
We all know the truth (even if you won’t admit it VS.)
I won’t lose any sleep over your problems.

Well
The thing is that I ask you all a lot of questions because I want to gauge where people stand as individuals but I continuously must deal with a pack nipping each other to stay in line and present a united front.

But here is my conclusion

Any idea that GC actually care about the rights and protections of trans people, especially trans young people just isn't bourne out because your opinions are not justifiable

Your words are maliable amd twisted as easily as you twist others

The occasional "we care about trans people" without any reasonable solutions are Trojan Horses. Pretty at first glance but full of sharp sticks on the inside.

People will all realise your straw arguments hold no weight unless using them themselves

I take back what I said earlier, there is no hope for progress here. It is stagnant

The thing is that I ask you all a lot of questions because I want to gauge where people stand as individuals but I continuously must deal with a pack nipping each other to stay in line and present a united front.

No you are continually nipping at other posters in order to stay to the forefront.

That's not what is happening though is it VS. As soon as people hear the debate they say hold on men in womens prisons, treatment that isnt evidence based for young people, not so sure about this.

But you leave them out. Every decent trans person trying to live their lives are left out of these threads and are only mentioned as somehow responsible for them

Every young person being bullied right now in school and online for being LGBT or as LGBT when they aren't

You ruined my thread with the concerns about bullying issues and took it over with yours which were opposite opposing subjects

You make every thread about any one issue the exact same spectrum of issues over and over and over because you can't keep them seperate and trans people in general must be discussed with rapists etc and force those of us who see this as wrong to protest that as unfair

Why? Do you enjoy this in some way?

We are supposed to be the generations looked up too, the ones who share wisdom and truth with young people and yet... it's all jibes and point scoring

The young have much to teach us and we either learn it or we are the ones who become a minority group and the target of others disdain

That's the other side, the end result and the legacy you leave.

Who are you talking to. I have no idea what thread you are on about.

I dont decide my views based on whether sections of society whether young or old are going to like me. If I did that I would have voted Brexit.

Rather nasty posts from Violetsky.

No they aren't

Maybe read them again.

If It were me and someone kept coming to my discussions and saying

Here is what this looks like

Here is what you are missing

Here is the potential harmful outcome

I'd be horrified and I'd change it and I'd recognise that there is no justification without accountability and responsibility

Our young people and trans people need a voice here and if you don't give them one while discussing them...

It's basically gossip

It's now gossip to discuss current NHS guidelines or the Cass report?

It's now changing the narrative apparently

But it's rare for any question I ask to actually be thought through and answered