Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

Well from my perspective, that's what is happening

Because I'm trying to have a conversation and the rugs getting pulled from under my feet

VioletSky

Well from my perspective, that's what is happening

Because I'm trying to have a conversation and the rugs getting pulled from under my feet

I get that you feel that way, but you really need to show where this is happening if you want to get to the bottom of it.

I don’t see it like that at all - from my perspective (which I am not saying is more valid than yours), people are just expressing their own feelings and opinions, but being compared to racists and homophobes for their pains, or being lectured in phrases that don’t make sense (eg ‘in the wrong body’ or ‘most marginalised’). You don’t appear to believe us when we say we wish no harm to transpeople, but we don’t.

You say you understand concerns that criminals will abuse self-id (because they are criminals, not because they are transpeople) yet you accuse us of transphobia when we don’t want to give them that opportunity on a plate. It is you who seems to change her mind about whether self-id is good or not- you can’t reasonably believe it should be allowed whilst simultaneously agreeing that it will lead to crimes against women, can you?

I do understand that you feel beleaguered, and appreciate that you feel strongly about what you see as protecting children, but the people you argue with feel want to protect them too - from what we see as the harm that comes from encouraging them to believe that they can change sex.

Finally, could you feeling that the rug is being pulled from under you be because this is not a black and white subject? People can agree with part of what you say but not all of it, so you see agreement but object to the bits where someone disagrees? Just a thought.

Trans peoples struggles are being compared to gay peoples struggles or black peoples struggles as minority groups and fights I have seen before

You don't see the parallels but I do.

And i feel as feminists you should understand this.

Instead you are going with being compared to racists even though that's not the outcome I was trying to achieve, I was appealing to your empathy, not insulting you.

This is how you can easily read people wrong

But you aren't going to achieve empathy by making false comparisons, particularly when they are with offensive outlooks. I would have thought that was obvious.

If I compared encouraging children to change their bodies with paedophiles because they also harm children, you would (rightly) be up in arms, wouldn't you? What you are doing with racists and homophobes is the same thing.

OK, I can see that now you have pointed it out in friendly terms

But I do see the comparisons and because I'm LGBT, in return you must be able to understand, we face many of the same problems so we see it as a shared struggle

You put things so clearly Doodledog, especially the part about false comparisons. Thank you.

Here is a brief history

Also LGBT covers all ethnicities so the fight has always included them and in order to do so, their struggles against other types of discrimination are included. There is brief mention here but not everyone who fought with LGBT for equality were LGBT

There are longer histories available

But it's all the same fight to me for this reason and my reasoning is historically shown that we have never been separate. So that is where I am coming from

www.bl.uk/lgbtq-histories/articles/a-short-history-of-lgbt-rights-in-the-uk

By no means all LGB people feel as you do, though, so you don't feel like that because you are bisexual, but because you are you (which is fine, but it is important to recognise the difference).

Also, you are not the only person on these threads who is LGB, the law of averages shows that there will be others. As with all groups of people, those with gay sexualities do not think as one, and generally don't appreciate someone speaking as a mouthpiece for the whole group. The same is true for transpeople, who must be utterly fed up with well-meaning people who are not trans themselves speaking on their behalf.

You may have struggled with your sexuality, but please don't assume that others haven't had similar (or different) struggles of their own. It doesn't give you the right to assume a higher level of empathy than other people. You don't know the personal circumstances of others on these threads, or of their friends and families - the odds are high that none of us has experiences that make us different from everyone else.

That's not really fair is it

I am LGBT so I can't deny our history because of those who would like the T removed and I also should not be asked to do that by anyone

Others cannot dictate who I belong with, who I am willing to stand up for or who I empathise with

So either you can understand where I am coming from or you can choose not to

But that doesn't make it right to deny my reasoning for my comments and draw conclusions about me as a person from it

The only gay or lesbian people I know, including some I work with, and there are several, are not happy with being, as they have put it, dragged into alignment with trans. They feel that they’ve fought hard enough for their rights and haven’t damaged others in the process.
Being grouped with trans (since the violence, cheating and lying by some, erupted) has caused people to query whether they (LG), support that and the claims to have changed sex in order to achieve things.
That’s hard, especially when you’re a teacher and some parents are aware that you have a wife, husband or partner of the same sex.
Parents who have not seen it as a problem before, but now wonder about the LG association with a group that has gained notoriety for violence cheating and lying.

I know that’s unfair on the majority of individuals, but as I have said repeatedly, the publicly seen damage caused by some TW and TRA has had an impact on how trans, in particular TW, are perceived.
Nobody wants to dictate who you belong with, who you are willing to stand up for or who you empathise with.
Afford others the same courtesy.

I have never not offered others the same courtesy

Maybe all LGB do not remember who marched shoulder to shoulder with them and who still does at PRIDE. Maybe some LGB do not attend PRIDE? I wouldn't know but many do accept the T and I am allowed to stand with them and that identity will govern how I talk about this

I have always stood up for women's rights in these threads as a woman too and shared my concerns and my ideas for solutions to ensure all rights are protected

The only real difference is that I accept trans women as women

And that doesn't make me a bad person

Not accepting TW as female doesn’t make others bad people.
The word woman has been corrupted by males to include them and used by a minority of TW to commit crimes, and impact negatively on the public perception of all trans.

No, being GC does not make people bad people Mollygo

What makes people bad people is how they behave and how they treat others

VioletSky

That's not really fair is it

I am LGBT so I can't deny our history because of those who would like the T removed and I also should not be asked to do that by anyone

Others cannot dictate who I belong with, who I am willing to stand up for or who I empathise with

So either you can understand where I am coming from or you can choose not to

But that doesn't make it right to deny my reasoning for my comments and draw conclusions about me as a person from it

I am drawing no conclusions about you as a person.

I didn't say that you can't deny your history either, and I am not dictating anything - you do put words into my mouth a lot 😀. What I am saying is that on one hand you are suggesting that your bisexuality means that you can speak more authoritatively about that than those from other groups (fair enough), and on the other that you are able to empathise with trans people when they are no more likely to also be bisexual than anyone else (not so fair enough). You don't, however, know anything about the sexuality of others on here, so can't assume anything about that, or about how your opinions carry more weight based on your own. Plus, the nature of empathy is such that it doesn't rely on having gone through the exact same thing as the person being empathised with, so anyone can empathise with anyone else, really.

I am also saying that whilst sexuality is an important part of someone's identity it does not define us in ways that mean people of different sexualities share opinions or outlooks on very much else.

VioletSky

No, being GC does not make people bad people Mollygo

What makes people bad people is how they behave and how they treat others

There you go again, applying your choice of appellation to others. It’s really rather rude, but obviously you don’t see it as that.

Your second point is correct.
So what would you do about the TW who behave badly, treat others badly and impact badly on the lives of the innocent trans, and in the light of my previous post, impact badly on the lives of G&L ?

It would help if you both weren't being so defensive

Not everything I say is about anyone, I'm just putting it out there

You can believe that the behaviour of some impacts how the rest are viewed but I don't share that mindset Mollygo and I don't know how to explain it to you. Perhaps doodledog can because we agree on that

It's not being defensive to answer direct questions, which is what I am doing.

The behaviour of criminals impacts on whether people who care about women feel about allowing self-identified transpeople to enter female spaces. This will have an impact on transpeople who mean no harm, but IMO that is less important than the safety of women. As long as male-bodied people can enter female spaces there is a risk to women, and transwomen are male-bodied, so they should not be allowed to enter. IMO surgically transitioned transwomen are a different category, but they are relatively rare, and there would be problems with determining who they are, so it is probably simpler to have a blanket ban.

Does that agree with both of you?

It's organisations that need the equality act read to them

Yes, that would help, but we're in the situation we were in in the 80s when people believed that you couldn't use blackboards because they were black, rather than that the chalk dust was bad for asthma. So many people are confused by the law, and are scared.

What can we do to help people with those fears?

Not allow male-bodied people into their spaces?

VS, I’m not defensive. That’s your version a
which could equally apply (as your version) to whatever you say.
I’m just stating facts. You don’t have to agree with them, but it doesn’t make them any less true.

VioletSky

What can we do to help people with those fears?

Today 15:46 Doodledog

Not allow male-bodied people into their spaces?
That’s be a good start Doodledog.

Whyare you so confrontational then Mollygo

I don't attack you on a personal level in any way so if you aren't defensive why do you do it?

Your version of events again VS.
I find you confrontational, accusatory and Inaccepting of the truth, but I haven’t commented on that because that’s just what I expect from you.

Listen to the way you talk to me on every thread, it's exactly the way you just typed

I don't hold grudges, I'm just a happy person who gets over it