Woman found guilty of raping two women. Remanded in custody for sentence end February

Aveline

It's patently obvious that cases of sex offenders identifying as female after being charged are exactly what is setting back the cause for all transgender people as are the aggressive transgender people causing so much trouble at pro women demonstrations. Just too much testosterone fuelling it.
It's a great pity for those who just quietly carry on with their new genders.

This.

VioletSky

Iam64

VioletSky, Its clear it’s very important to you, that you oppose any comment you perceive to be anti trans people and the right to self id. That could enable good debate and discussion yet your contributions seem aimed at closing debate. Posting lol could be seen as patronising, rude and takes the debate no where.

Except

This is actually wrong though and not what I have been saying

I do not laugh at rapists or survivors. I am a survivor. I've also talked at great length about how important it is to me that victims of violent or sexual crime are not expected to worry about pronouns or anything like that of their attackers at any time. They have experienced trauma and I don't want to see any more reasons why women don't report attacks to authorities.

If the fact that sometimes I laugh instead of get upset or angry at others on threads offends you well, getting upset and angry just isn't me and I will stick up for myself but not letting negative emotions make me act like a crappy person.

So I'll stay as I am thank you and if you feel the need to call me out rather than the comments I responded too then I hope you have really thought that through

I don’t see my post as calling anyone out and I don’t understand what you hope I’ve thought through.
I agree with you in not wanting victims of sexual or violent crime to have to worry about pronouns. A rapist is male. No victim should have to refer to her/her penis etc.
It’s part of being human to get upset and angry, trying to pretend lol doesn’t alter the underlying emotion.

I acknowledge you are a survivor Violet. You aren’t the only survivor posting on these threads. We 70’s feminists discovered, when we asked the question, that almost every woman in the room had experienced abuse of different kinds, almost all the physical and sexual abuse perpetrated by men. Things haven’t changed

doodledog

There is a 4th thing I haven't said

You are in the lead so far with 2

If you don't want to do better of course you don't have to

But if you want to tell me what I think at least back it up with evidence I've actually said something.

Besides, I've explained to you before, if you listened:

1. I am not particularly interested in giving rights to those accused of rape

2. Rapists shouldn't be in woman's prisons, and possibly not mens either where they might also reoffend.

3. I do not think victims should be asked to use pronouns for their attackers I think we focus on theor trauma and mental health as a priority

4. None of that has anything to do with trans people in general

5. Mollygo seems to think that rapists who claim after the fact they are trans, damages the image of ALL trans people which is utter nonsense

If you want a discussion you need to actually read what others say

Iam64

Perhaps you could be principled enough to acknowledge Mollygo should not have said that to me.

Because I think it should be very apparent I would not and have not laughed at the topic itself.

If you can't differentiate even after forcing me to explain myself, I don't know what else I can say so I'm hoping I'm wrong

I’m sorry Violet, I don’t know what Mollygo said to offend you. I’ve looked back and see some discussion on whether the actions of misogynistic trans activists /rapists who later self id as female impact ALL trans women.

Mollygo

I don’t find anything to do with rapists funny,
but you go for it VS if you do.

Here it is Iam64

Mollygo also clearly said "image" and has said so several times in this thread.

Impact I agree with because yes, it may impact a trans woman who would never hurt another woman being allowed in a woman's prison and put her at huge risk in a male prison.

But image of all trans women?

Most of whom will never commit a crime?

What are your thoughts on that?

Do you believe I would laugh at the thread topic? And if not, do you agree that's a pretty vile thing to say to a fellow woman and survivor?

I hope that I don’t offend any of you; but I honestly don’t understand why you are debating this over and over, and repeating everything ad nauseam.
It’s not going to make any difference to anything

FannyCornforth

I hope that I don’t offend any of you; but I honestly don’t understand why you are debating this over and over, and repeating everything ad nauseam.
It’s not going to make any difference to anything

No, I agree, we get nowhere and it's incredibly sad

I dont think it's sad or happy. We disagree that's fine. Trying to change the mind of someone on the internet is futile, its certainly not why I am here.

Lack of principles, boundaries and assigning views or values to others that aren't there, especially when the opposite has been expressed makes me sad for humanity and our young people stuck in a world with people like that

I think there is an attempt to keep this thread going until it reaches 1000 posts.
Sad.

It's not going to make any difference to anything I disagree Fanny. I think the fact that this issue is being discussed here and elsewhere, has already made a difference.

It's resulted in a convicted double rapist not being housed in a woman's prison, and the outpouring of concern with regard to Scotland's GRC Bill must have had some influence on Westminster's decision to block the bill.

I don't think it's happy or sad either Galaxy, it is what it is and it's always good to listen to a well argued point of view even if it differs to your own.

I agree with you VS but for me, the lack of principles, boundaries and assigning views or values to others that aren't there, especially when the opposite has been expressed is coming from the TRA's and their supporters.

Cheer up, Grans! Even the Church of England is debating 'dropping gendered language when referring to the Lord'.

Apologies to any Gran who may have already picked this point up.

In my (Catholic) school days we knew God as three persons in one - logically 'They'.

Don't know if this helps, hinders, bores or annoys.

I'm surprised that Justin Welby thinks he knows better than Jesus in that Christians should not refer to God as father, bearing in mind that Jesus told his followers to refer to God in that way.

Yes, God is three persons in one; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God isn't gender specific, Jesus referred to his father in terms of the relationship.

The C of E can debate the issue until it's blue in the face; God is my spiritual/heavenly father.

The world really does seem to be going mad.

eazybee

I think there is an attempt to keep this thread going until it reaches 1000 posts.
Sad.

Ah. That makes sense. Yes, that is sad.

Re the religious thing - I read that this morning, but don't think it is because of the trans lobby - my guess is that it is to be inclusive to women. It's not for me to say, but I can't see it catching on. It's interesting, but it doesn't help or hinder this debate, for me anyway.

Vintagenonna

Cheer up, Grans! Even the Church of England is debating 'dropping gendered language when referring to the Lord'.

Apologies to any Gran who may have already picked this point up.

In my (Catholic) school days we knew God as three persons in one - logically 'They'.

Don't know if this helps, hinders, bores or annoys.

Doesn't mean he's right though.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit has no physical body, so is without a sex surely?

You're probably right Doodledog but is does seem strange that it's not been suggested before and the C of E has been ordaining women since 1994 and women bishops since 2017; good grief only 29 and 6 years ago so maybe not so strange after all.

Smileless2012

I agree with you VS but for me, the lack of principles, boundaries and assigning views or values to others that aren't there, especially when the opposite has been expressed is coming from the TRA's and their supporters.

On this thread?

Can you show me evidence of this please

Did I say it was on this thread VS? No, so why ask?

Well it was my original thought that you quoted

Image, as in what people think of when they hear a word.
When you hear ‘terrorist’ you don’t get an image of a little old lady knotting bombs at MU.
Those discussing on here may well know about fake trans, or trans who are acting as their authentic selves or trans who do no harm. They may well be, or know trans who would pass as women or as men, but, if you ask in an average group of people you don’t really know, what they know about trans, the conversation is usually about TW and topped with mentions of males in female prisons, cheats in sport, rapists who have said they’re female, Eddie Izzard and males in female changing rooms.
This isn’t because of trans who have been living unobtrusively. Most people don’t even know they exist. It’s because of the publicity caused by the trans who cheat, rape, demand the right to be in female spaces etc, together with the publicity round the TRA who attack females like JKR or females holding peaceful rallies to support female rights.
It isn’t fair on all innocent trans, but for many, the impact of people’s perception of trans has been affected by the cheating and lying and violent actions and the support of those actions instead of the condemnation of those actions.

Ok Violet, for what it’s worth, my impression of mollygo’s comment is she was being ironic.
I find the use of lol in a situation that isn’t remotely funny difficult to understand. I see it as passive aggression.
I don’t see any purpose in continuing to nit pick and shred comments looking for conflict and offence to perpetuate victim status

Mollygo

Image, as in what people think of when they hear a word.
When you hear ‘terrorist’ you don’t get an image of a little old lady knotting bombs at MU.
Those discussing on here may well know about fake trans, or trans who are acting as their authentic selves or trans who do no harm. They may well be, or know trans who would pass as women or as men, but, if you ask in an average group of people you don’t really know, what they know about trans, the conversation is usually about TW and topped with mentions of males in female prisons, cheats in sport, rapists who have said they’re female, Eddie Izzard and males in female changing rooms.
This isn’t because of trans who have been living unobtrusively. Most people don’t even know they exist. It’s because of the publicity caused by the trans who cheat, rape, demand the right to be in female spaces etc, together with the publicity round the TRA who attack females like JKR or females holding peaceful rallies to support female rights.
It isn’t fair on all innocent trans, but for many, the impact of people’s perception of trans has been affected by the cheating and lying and violent actions and the support of those actions instead of the condemnation of those actions.

Then explain to me:

Why would you want to be part of this?

Why do you say it yourself?

Why would you be repeating it over and over and over?

Why aren't you standing up and saying, no, this is wrong, exactly as I have?

The problem is that the people who rape may or may not be transpeople (most will not be, IMO) but that rapists can easily pass themselves off as such, as long as all it takes to be assumed to be a woman is to say 'I identify as a woman', and therefore genuine transpeople have no way of differentiating themselves from the criminals. Unless, that is, they go the third way, and describe themselves as transpeople, and the male ones stay out of female spaces.

If I am being led a dance here, and duped into saying the same thing over and over to push this thread off the first page, I apologise to those who are bored. It is hard to believe that a very simple message just isn't going in, so that might well be the case.