Who do you believe: Sunak or the IMF?

ronib

I am very confused by your comments. You must be aware of the large salaries paid to managers in the NHS, senior civil servants, and a whole host of public sector workers at management level. Paid for by the tax payer.

Who is far right?

I'm not sure why you had problems ronib. A government that wants to destroy the public sector and increase the private sector, at the expense of those who use the public sector, would be one definition of the far right. You seem to agree with them doing this ronib.

You really don't have to have qualifications in recruitment to know that, if there are qualified people available and they are leaving a great variety of public sector jobs in their droves, there is something wrong with the pay and conditions, or do you have another explanation for this?

Daisy Anne the civil service currently employs 513,000 people.
I think it’s a pretty high number for this country.
I can see no evidence of the government attempting to destroy the public sector. In fact I thought it was increasing with a vengeance?

Daisy Anne some examples would be helpful if you have any.

ronib

Daisy Anne the civil service currently employs 513,000 people.
I think it’s a pretty high number for this country.
I can see no evidence of the government attempting to destroy the public sector. In fact I thought it was increasing with a vengeance?

ICAEW extract:

‘Public administration is down from 20 years ago, with 966,000 FTEs in June 2021 compared with 998,000 two decades previously. FTEs increased to a peak of 1,081,000 in June 2005 before falling gradually to 1,010,000 in June 2010, followed by more significant falls following the financial crisis. Most of the net fall represents fewer public servants in local government since the financial crisis , with civil servants in central government only slightly below where they were 20 years ago at 465,000 FTEs in June 2021 compared with 492,000 in June 2001. The total would have been much lower but for a post-Brexit surge in the size of the civil service, which has grown by 20% from its nadir of 384,000 FTEs in June 2016.’

As usual, the internet gives varying figures… depending on the site. So pretty pointless exercise.

Some fairly ordinary people would really like much less interference in their ordinary lives but that’s really not going to be understood here?

ronib When you talk about "the taxpayer", why don't you just write "all of us"? Every single person in the UK pays tax, unless they're truly living off grid. Even those who have somebody else pay for everything they consume is using something which has had tax paid on it at some stage in production.

Why do you feel such a need to be divisive and put people in boxes? We're all taxpayers, even those who work in public service.

ronib

As usual, the internet gives varying figures… depending on the site. So pretty pointless exercise.

Some fairly ordinary people would really like much less interference in their ordinary lives but that’s really not going to be understood here?

It could be because so much public administration has been outsourced, so employees are employed by private companies, but directly funded by the state. Such people are no longer civil servants nor local government employees.

Growstuff no not everyone is a taxpayer. Some people try very hard to earn under the tax band. Not divisive just accurate.

I've followed this thread with interest and tbh I've been concerned that giving pay rises to public sector workers would help fuel inflation but having done my own research I think there's enough evidence to suggest that it wouldn't. Unlike private businesses, public bodies can't increase prices to cover increased employees pay. I think the question is, as a developed society do we want good health care, decent schools, well run services for the most disadvantaged in our society etc etc or do we want to be like the US? I know which type of society I prefer. I think the current govt is taking a political stance but hiding behind an economic one and because so few of us really understand economics, we just don't realise this.

The IMF has an agenda of its own and is no more disinterested than our party politicians.

ronib

Growstuff no not everyone is a taxpayer. Some people try very hard to earn under the tax band. Not divisive just accurate.

Oh yes they are! Income tax only accounts for about 25% of the Treasury's income. People pay tax on just about everything they buy from insurance to haircuts. They also pay council tax, road tax, fuel tax etc. People who provide you their services "for free" such as teachers and medics pay tax.

growstuff

ronib

As usual, the internet gives varying figures… depending on the site. So pretty pointless exercise.

Some fairly ordinary people would really like much less interference in their ordinary lives but that’s really not going to be understood here?

It could be because so much public administration has been outsourced, so employees are employed by private companies, but directly funded by the state. Such people are no longer civil servants nor local government employees.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Local Government cuts due to government underfunding is the main reason for the reduction in civil servants.

Divisive and inaccurate!

Casdon

growstuff

ronib

As usual, the internet gives varying figures… depending on the site. So pretty pointless exercise.

Some fairly ordinary people would really like much less interference in their ordinary lives but that’s really not going to be understood here?

It could be because so much public administration has been outsourced, so employees are employed by private companies, but directly funded by the state. Such people are no longer civil servants nor local government employees.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Local Government cuts due to government underfunding is the main reason for the reduction in civil servants.

Local government employees aren't civil servants, although they might be included in the statistics.

ronib's failure to recognise any form of taxation apart from income tax is likely to be a result of the media not taking a great deal of interest in any other sort of taxation (and she's obviously never read any of my posts where I point out exactly what you have just done, growstuff )

This is from the BBC thematic Review that I mentioned yesterday somewhere:

Thinking about a broad definition of impartiality, one question we asked was ‘are people’s diverse interests proportionately represented in BBC coverage?’ There’s no perfect measure of that, but we think we can observe misalignments. What gets talked about can obscure big interests that don’t, bringing risks to impartiality by omission.
^ A striking example is VAT^.
In Wales, more VAT is paid than income tax, ditto North East England. In fact, a large proportion of the whole UK population pays more VAT than income tax. For a great many households across the country, VAT is the biggest tax and so to them you might say the most important. More than one third of UK adults pay no income tax at all, but they do pay VAT.

What determines this is people’s relative income and spending. For high incomes, income tax is likely to dominate; for lower incomes, VAT. That is, these groups have different tax interests. But which tax is more talked about? Which interest is most served by political argument and BBC coverage?

We think income tax knocks VAT out of the park in this respect, meaning the tax interest of the better-off gets more attention.

Asked about this imbalance in the coverage of VAT, many interviewees went silent for a moment, then said things like: ‘Interesting… never really thought about it. Yes.’

P 21

www.bbc.co.uk/aboutthebbc/documents/thematic-review-taxation-public-spending-govt-borrowing-debt.pdf

growstuff

Divisive and inaccurate!

I think you are being problematic.

MaizieD no vat on food, no vat on cutting your own hair, no vat on walking, no vat on charity shop clothing and purchases, no vat on foraging and collected wood/garden logs, no vat on home grown vegetables. And so on …. So difficult to say exactly how much anyone pays in vat but usually simple enough for income tax.

growstuff

Casdon

growstuff

ronib

As usual, the internet gives varying figures… depending on the site. So pretty pointless exercise.

Some fairly ordinary people would really like much less interference in their ordinary lives but that’s really not going to be understood here?

It could be because so much public administration has been outsourced, so employees are employed by private companies, but directly funded by the state. Such people are no longer civil servants nor local government employees.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Local Government cuts due to government underfunding is the main reason for the reduction in civil servants.

Local government employees aren't civil servants, although they might be included in the statistics.

The ICAEW categorise them together, with some rationale, but you are right.
Civil service figures only, which are interesting.
www.civilservant.org.uk/information-numbers.html

ronib

MaizieD no vat on food, no vat on cutting your own hair, no vat on walking, no vat on charity shop clothing and purchases, no vat on foraging and collected wood/garden logs, no vat on home grown vegetables. And so on …. So difficult to say exactly how much anyone pays in vat but usually simple enough for income tax.

Please don't insult your or my intelligence, ronib.

MaizieD just an alternative way of life which you have probably not experienced. No insult surely?

Do you do joined up thinking?
This isn't an exchange of ideas/opinions. It's a ronib stream of consciousness, flitting from idea to idea and only you can follow it.
What on earth the tiny handful of people who live entirely off grid with no participation in modern life has to do with firms of taxation, or the number of civil servants, excess deaths and any other thing you've briefly alighted on is completely beyond me, so I give up. ☹️

MaizieD this is not off grid living. Some people in very respectable communities live like this. It’s not stream of consciousness but trying to say that not everyone contributes to vat receipts in the same way!

MaizieD in reply to your attachment to the BBC …..

ronib

MaizieD this is not off grid living. Some people in very respectable communities live like this. It’s not stream of consciousness but trying to say that not everyone contributes to vat receipts in the same way!

So what?
Not everyone pays income tax, either.

I really am done with this😁