Junior doctors strike

foxie48 but my delivery man highlighted for me that he was stuck in a difficult financial situation with probably little opportunity to double or treble his income. Surely junior doctors can understand that there’s an end in sight to economic misery if not working conditions?

ronib life is about a lot more than work and money. Family, relationships, children, friends, life outside work are also very important. DD is not married, in a current relationship or have children but it wouldn't matter if she did, the situation would still be the same. If you can't understand the implications of being constantly "on the move" and not in control of something as important as your geographical location, I am not going to try to explain it to you. It's OK when you are young but when you have spent 7 years at 2 different uni's (DD was a graduate entry medic) and you are in your 8th year of training, I think most people would like rather more autonomy. She is not that motivated by money but she does want to progress in her career so no doubt she will just suck it up but the point is, others won't.

Thing isFoxie your daughter must have known what she was getting into when she started her career? If not then she is the guilty one for not finding out as much as she could before starting.
Many people work very long hours in bad conditions for much less pay and have to travel long distances .I know two junior doctors both in their late 20's both female both working a long distance from home .
I suppose the saving grace here is they dont pay for parking which is a godsend as one of them has a dad who is terminally ill and sometimes comes home between shifts to visit him so her car is essential.As I pointed out or junior doctors aren't on strike they have been balloted and we'll find the result in May ...our (the SNPis a mess!) government actually TALKS to the unions maybe WM government could try doing that.

Yes of course and it's me moaning! I'm just upset that she'll be so far away. I'll get over it!

I understand where the Junior Doctors are coming from, but I can't understand why apparently clever people are expecting so much. 35% may be their starting demand but it gives an indication of what they expect to end up with. I doubt they would drop as low as 10% so if the government agreed on say 20% then the teachers unions would demand the same. And nurses, the police, the fire brigade, etc, etc. All are worth at least that. All have had their real earning cut over many years. But so have many in the private sector without powerful unions behind them. Especially the lower paid, many of whom are still very important cogs (although 20% of minimum wage is much more affordable).

How is it to be funded?

I understand foxie because my daughter is in New Zealand, thanks to pay being held down, Covid stresses, and last but certainly not least, the negative vibes she felt through the media and sometimes patients, about doctors, especially GPs. She’s not actually paid a lot more but she gets paid about the same for far fewer hours. She leaves work at 4.30 most afternoons. 5.00 is a late afternoon. There are problems in the New Zealand healthcare system too, but doctors are treated with respect! She’d like to come home but dreads the thought of working in the NHS again. She follows the news over here and is on several internet groups for British doctors and is fully aware of the problems over here.
The key phrase in my post is;

doctors are treated with respect in New Zealand.

I hope she’s not reading this thread on Gransnet.

I can’t understand why posters on Gransnet fail to understand how much the pay of doctors has devalued over the last twelve to fourteen years, nor how much they have been devalued by both the government and many patients. Morale is at rock bottom in the profession and this is leading to the current problems.

And frankly, comparing a doctor to a delivery person is ludicrous. There’s no comparison. Everyone has bigger energy bills, including doctors!

Maddyone - there’s no accounting for those with fixed ideas who can’t or won’t face the reality

As for struggling workers, did you need this delivery driver to explain how tough life is for people ronib?

maddyone we seem doomed to cross swords. I am concerned for the families who are struggling financially without any certainty of large income improvements once specialist training is completed. I didn’t compare Ocado delivery drivers to doctors but both are treated with the respect they deserve.

Also armed forces personnel are used to travelling and working in to quite dangerous locations and are moved frequently. It’s not just doctors who face rotation in training!

Iam64 no of course I didn’t need my delivery driver to explain how tough life is with 3 children. I thought though that Gransnetters were so preoccupied with the concerns of their own children that perhaps they had forgotten how the rest of the world lived!

ronib

maddyone we seem doomed to cross swords. I am concerned for the families who are struggling financially without any certainty of large income improvements once specialist training is completed. I didn’t compare Ocado delivery drivers to doctors but both are treated with the respect they deserve.

Also armed forces personnel are used to travelling and working in to quite dangerous locations and are moved frequently. It’s not just doctors who face rotation in training!

Quite right but the armed forces are provided with accommodation, junior doctors are not. The armed forces do not pay their own moving costs, junior doctors do. The children of armed service people have priority for school places, SPP, the option of help with assisted fees, junior doctors do not. Daughter actually considered training via the army, she's a very fit outdoor type. She would have received a wage and priority training. The armed forces really look after their medics but she decided it wasn't for her. I also care about people who are struggling on poor pay and I'd like to think that the NHS is there to help them when they are sick. Statistically it's the poorest in our society that uses the NHS most. I'm just not sure that poor pay and working conditions for doctors helps the most vulnerable in our society in any way at all. Perhaps you could explain.

foxie48 actually not all armed forces are provided with accommodation. If a family wants to stay in a particular area and not move every 3 years or so then different rules apply. Ditto to school fees. Young officers do need to be careful with spending and I think that pay bands are comparable to junior doctors. Also there’s the added dimension of death on the battlefield.

No I can’t explain why roughly 18 percent of doctors are employed as locums in the Nhs at greatly inflated rates.No I don’t know why the managers of the Nhs manage rotas and staff in the way they do. I would much prefer the more relaxed Australian experience for both doctors and patients but …..

Quite right but the armed forces are provided with accommodation

No, not always.
And, of course, it is not free, contrary to what many people may think.

We paid for our daughter’s accommodation all the time she was a medical student in London. It was expensive.

Unfortunately many people fail to understand that the lack of proper cost of living rises since 2008 has devalued the pay of all doctors enormously. Coupled with the abuse and lack of respect they deal with from some patients, not to mention the hounding they get from the media, doctors are feeling undervalued and are suffering from low morale. Given the circumstances I’m not surprised. Sometimes my daughter sends me copies of things doctors have said on their forums and I know that they are feeling very unhappy and devalued at this time after such prolonged pay restraint.

ronib I can explain why 18% of junior doctors are working as locums at greatly inflated rates. They can earn a great deal more, work less, have greater autonomy over their working lives and live where they want. The only mystery is why more don't do it. What they give up is career progression. Why does that matter? Well, because junior doctors are effectively both in training as well as training those who are junior to them, the NHS needs junior doctors to be properly contracted and heading towards becoming consultants, because it is the consultants who are the leading trainers. It's really not rocket science. I, of course, have skin in the game but surely it's not difficult to see that demoralised junior doctors who feel they are underpaid and under valued is putting the NHS under extra pressure. It's a very simple equation, basically the law of supply and demand. If junior doctors are leaving or not progressing onto further training, either or both of the following needs to change: rate of pay/conditions of service. This is what operates in the private world of lawyers, bankers, recruitment etc and the bottom line is it also is in operation in our public services including the NHS.

Applying simple logic, foxie48 are you suggesting that all junior doctors should be paid at the going rate for locums in order to retain their services?

ronib

Iam64 no of course I didn’t need my delivery driver to explain how tough life is with 3 children. I thought though that Gransnetters were so preoccupied with the concerns of their own children that perhaps they had forgotten how the rest of the world lived!

I suggest you look at the news and politics threads, where you’ll see the majority of posters are well aware and furious about the struggles faced by everyone, other than the very wealthy, as a result of the cost of living crisis.
12 years of incompetent, uncaring Tory mismanagement of the country is behind these strikes and the devastation of the nhs and other public services

ronib

foxie48 actually not all armed forces are provided with accommodation. If a family wants to stay in a particular area and not move every 3 years or so then different rules apply. Ditto to school fees. Young officers do need to be careful with spending and I think that pay bands are comparable to junior doctors. Also there’s the added dimension of death on the battlefield.

No I can’t explain why roughly 18 percent of doctors are employed as locums in the Nhs at greatly inflated rates.No I don’t know why the managers of the Nhs manage rotas and staff in the way they do. I would much prefer the more relaxed Australian experience for both doctors and patients but …..

What do your think our doctors are worth ronib. Or do you just want to see the destruction of the NHS?

DaisyAnne if every junior doctor is to be paid at locum rates as opposed to 18 percent of doctors currently, surely this is the end of the NHS?

ronib

Applying simple logic, foxie48 are you suggesting that all junior doctors should be paid at the going rate for locums in order to retain their services?

Rather than applying what you think is "simple logic" you might try reading my reply more carefully.
"If junior doctors are leaving or not progressing onto further training, either or both of the following needs to change: rate of pay/conditions of service."

Maybe the funding model needs to change also foxie48 to part state funded and part insurance model in line with Australia?

ronib

Maybe the funding model needs to change also foxie48 to part state funded and part insurance model in line with Australia?

Please explain exactly how that would alleviate the situation.

How would a different funding model change how much doctors are paid or their workload?