Junior doctors strike

Shropshirelass

Doctors take the hypocratic oath, in my mind strike action goes against this. They chose this profession with everything it brings with it. I cannot support any strike action by any health care workers whatsoever. Regardless of what they say, they are putting lives at risk going against the very heart of their work to look after people and save lives. Yes, the should be paid a lot more and working conditions improved but strikes are destructive and help no-one. Their workload will be much higher when they do return and then they will be moaning about that I suppose!.

What an ungrateful post. Doctors should just suck up poor pay and working conditions because they chose this profession apparently. NO! They should not. They should fight for fair pay and conditions. Why should doctors not be paid properly?
they will be moaning
It’s no wonder my doctor says many patients treat them with contempt.

maddyone In 2019 a multi year agreement for doctors in training was reached. Junior doctors’ pay scales will increase by 8.2per cent by the end of the deal.
Why was this agreed in 2019 only to be overturned now by demands for 35 per cent?

2019 is actually four years ago. And 8.2 per cent? When does the deal end?
I know you don’t agree with paying doctors properly, but really? You’ve had everything explained to you over and over and you still think doctors are the problem. I can’t be bothered any longer. There’s none so blind as those who will not see.

Deal ends March 2023 Maddyone. I don’t know how you got the idea that I thought doctors should not be paid properly. In fact I have written to my mp about this, have you?
I don’t agree that junior doctors should cause havoc in the health service but I think fair pay is essential.

Doctors and nurses are voting with their feet and I don’t blame them. If some think they do not deserve a decent pay increase then they are clearly happy to see this continue.

Those who enjoy the buffer of private health care no doubt.

Thank you ronib, I did get the idea that you weren’t happy about the pay demands, glad to hear you approve. The problem is that the doctors have no other way to make their point. If they don’t do this, basically most of the public won’t care, and the government certainly won’t be persuaded to restore their pay to anything like 2008 values. And obviously the four year agreement has now ended, so that is why they’re doing it now.

maddyone

Shropshirelass

Doctors take the hypocratic oath, in my mind strike action goes against this. They chose this profession with everything it brings with it. I cannot support any strike action by any health care workers whatsoever. Regardless of what they say, they are putting lives at risk going against the very heart of their work to look after people and save lives. Yes, the should be paid a lot more and working conditions improved but strikes are destructive and help no-one. Their workload will be much higher when they do return and then they will be moaning about that I suppose!.

What an ungrateful post. Doctors should just suck up poor pay and working conditions because they chose this profession apparently. NO! They should not. They should fight for fair pay and conditions. Why should doctors not be paid properly?
they will be moaning
It’s no wonder my doctor says many patients treat them with contempt.

It may not be contempt, it may just be that they have lost all sympathy for them.

Siope

There’s no legal requirement for doctors in the UK to take any oath, let alone the Hippocratic one. Some graduation ceremonies have oaths, some do not. Some doctors attend graduation ceremonies, some do not.

And no doctor pledges ‘first do no harm’ as that would seriously restrict the treatment they could offer, from steroids to surgery.

Nonetheless, if we assume healthcare staff are focused on helping patients to access good healthcare, then they have to strike. If they do not achieve change (including better pay), waiting lists will grow, patients will continue to suffer and die unnecessarily, and eventually the poor will have limited or no access to treatment - just look at NHS dentistry for the model.

Dr Hilary Jones was on TV last week and did say there is no longer a Hippocratic Oath but they do still pledge to do no harm.

Besides the fact that pledging the Hippocratic Oath is not compulsory, was probably not an accurate translation from Greek anyway, but has been revised in some Medical Schools, there is no compulsion to “pledge” it.

However ethically I don’t believe doctors can possibly be responsible for “doing no harm” when they have worked very long hours in stressful conditions and are and short staffed, unless they are super human.

Primrose53, different universities have different (or no) oaths. I think the closest any comes to ‘first do no harm’ is ‘I will utterly reject harm and mischief’.

They don’t say ‘first do no harm’ because, to quote oncologist Clive Peedell

‘The idea of “First do no harm” is absolute garbage from a medical point of view, anyway.
A surgeon’s incision causes harm; an oncologist’s drugs and radiation causes harm; a dermatologist’s steroids cause harm etc, etc.’

The whole system is now upside down. When the NHS first started it was a model for its age and supported everything from cradle to grave. However, the needs of society have changed. Procedures and surgeries have been introduced over the past 75 years which would never even have been thought of in 1948. Also, a lot of people use the free doctor's visits for things that could probably be dealt with by a chemist or even sat out at home. Rules and legislation and practices have become so tight that since covid anyone in the medical profession is stretched beyond capacity. With an ever increasing population, lack of patient knowledge etc it is just going to get worse. Are we going to go for an American model? A European model? Something has to change. The junior doctors' strike is only the tip of the ice berg for the future.

I agree that the whole situation is extremely concerning.

LRavenscroft

The whole system is now upside down. When the NHS first started it was a model for its age and supported everything from cradle to grave. However, the needs of society have changed. Procedures and surgeries have been introduced over the past 75 years which would never even have been thought of in 1948. Also, a lot of people use the free doctor's visits for things that could probably be dealt with by a chemist or even sat out at home. Rules and legislation and practices have become so tight that since covid anyone in the medical profession is stretched beyond capacity. With an ever increasing population, lack of patient knowledge etc it is just going to get worse. Are we going to go for an American model? A European model? Something has to change. The junior doctors' strike is only the tip of the ice berg for the future.

Are you suggesting that the model of financing needs to be changed, or just the way people use the NHS?

I meant that with a growing population and the way we’re losing doctors, and the dissatisfaction of other medical staff, the whole thing needs looking at. More money, higher wages, a lot more doctors trained in the UK.

Siope

Primrose53, different universities have different (or no) oaths. I think the closest any comes to ‘first do no harm’ is ‘I will utterly reject harm and mischief’.

They don’t say ‘first do no harm’ because, to quote oncologist Clive Peedell

‘The idea of “First do no harm” is absolute garbage from a medical point of view, anyway.
A surgeon’s incision causes harm; an oncologist’s drugs and radiation causes harm; a dermatologist’s steroids cause harm etc, etc.’

A surgeons incision, is not doing harm, it is part of the process to help heal. Now if he'd just incised, then walked away, that would be harm ,for goodness sakes.

MaizieD

LRavenscroft

The whole system is now upside down. When the NHS first started it was a model for its age and supported everything from cradle to grave. However, the needs of society have changed. Procedures and surgeries have been introduced over the past 75 years which would never even have been thought of in 1948. Also, a lot of people use the free doctor's visits for things that could probably be dealt with by a chemist or even sat out at home. Rules and legislation and practices have become so tight that since covid anyone in the medical profession is stretched beyond capacity. With an ever increasing population, lack of patient knowledge etc it is just going to get worse. Are we going to go for an American model? A European model? Something has to change. The junior doctors' strike is only the tip of the ice berg for the future.

Are you suggesting that the model of financing needs to be changed, or just the way people use the NHS?

Hi! Neither really. These are just my thoughts from experience, friends' & relatives' stories and the news. It just doesn't look as if it is going to get any better soon unless some workable system is put in place.

Well let’s hope it’s not the US system because if so millions of U.K. citizens will be seriously disadvantaged.

Those who are poorer and sicker and with chronic illnesses just for a start.

And to a great extent, that means retired people, who will have more chronic illnesses and conditions that need to be managed. Often their income is lower, and unless they are seriously wealthy, they are unlikely to be able to afford private treatment.

maddyone

And to a great extent, that means retired people, who will have more chronic illnesses and conditions that need to be managed. Often their income is lower, and unless they are seriously wealthy, they are unlikely to be able to afford private treatment.

Yes. I think that a lot of people seriously underestimate the cost of private medicine, and think that because they can afford to pay an initial consultation fee of £250 or whatever and then move to the top of the NHS queue they will be ok. That isn't private medicine - it is just queue jumping. The actual cost of treatment is eye-wateringly expensive, with tests running into hundreds and surgery into many thousands of pounds, and of course there is no saying that one operation will be the last one. A couple could clean out their savings on getting a couple of joints replaced each, and then find that one of them needs heart surgery and there's nothing left in the kitty. What then?

Freya5

Siope

Primrose53, different universities have different (or no) oaths. I think the closest any comes to ‘first do no harm’ is ‘I will utterly reject harm and mischief’.

They don’t say ‘first do no harm’ because, to quote oncologist Clive Peedell

‘The idea of “First do no harm” is absolute garbage from a medical point of view, anyway.
A surgeon’s incision causes harm; an oncologist’s drugs and radiation causes harm; a dermatologist’s steroids cause harm etc, etc.’

A surgeons incision, is not doing harm, it is part of the process to help heal. Now if he'd just incised, then walked away, that would be harm ,for goodness sakes.

You may think that Freya but personally, if the doctors don't I would prefer to give their opinion greater weight - unless, of course, you have all their training and knowledge.

I thought the 'do no harm' thing was basically saying that they wouldn't use their medical knowledge to actively or deliberately kill or hurt anyone, so in effect covering themselves against accidental damage.

I had a medical procedure done yesterday, and the list of unlikely but potential dangers I needed to be told before I could consent was extensive. I trusted that if any of these things happened it would be by mistake, and that the surgeon would do all in her power to ensure that I was ok, but even though it was a relatively small diagnostic procedure, she was in a position of great power, as I was sedated and unable to fight back. Had she wanted to do harm, she could have done, which is why they promise not to do so knowingly.

This is a concrete example of the treatment that Junior doctors have to put up with to become a consultant. My daughter has just received an offer for the last part of her specialist training. Her first placement, which is for a year, is 180 miles away from where she has lived and put down roots for the past four years. Following that first year she will have another 3 years of training but she doesn't know where except it will be somewhere within the deanery, which is a huge area. She will have to find and pay for her own accommodation although she already has a house, which she might be able to commute from for some placements. She is in a specialism which has huge shortages but there is still huge competition for training places so she'll take what she's been offered. fwiw she has already spent a year travelling for well over an hour each way on top of 12/13 hour shifts to her ST3 job. She couldn't use public transport because timings didn't fit her shifts and there was no parking for junior doctors at the hospital and usually no food available when she was on nights. And people wonder why junior doctors get fed up.

foxie48 I am not downplaying the problems and logistics that your daughter is facing but my Ocado delivery man today told me how very difficult life is becoming for his family as he has 3 children to support and an electricity bill of £388 without gas. He expressed the view that we’re being taken for a ride and someone is making mega bucks out of it.

So eventually, your daughter will find the struggle to be a specialist is over and she will be well compensated one would hope. But what could I say to my delivery man?

Ronib with all respect to your delivery man, this thread is about the Junior Doctors strike and why so many are prepared to strike.

I'm pretty fed up as she'll be a lot further away than she is now and with her shifts I'll see even less of her. She could, of course, go to Australia or New Zealand to finish off her training and I wouldn't blame her but I would be very sad.