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Why is Keir Starmer afraid to tell the truth about brexit?

(115 Posts)
varian Sun 16-Apr-23 09:53:44

Most of us, including many who voted for it, are now well aware that brexit has been an utter disaster.

Polls show that if the Labour Party told the truth about this disaster, it would actually gain support. So why is Keir Starmer so afraid to speak the truth?

www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/16/brexit-caps-40-years-of-conservative-failure-that-starmer-fears-to-oppose

Glorianny Sun 16-Apr-23 13:54:39

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

Keir Starmer finds it hard to tell the truth about anything.

So where has he lied?

This is the problem with headlines like this. They are put on by people with an axe to grind.

Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party; Varian is a member (I believe) of the Lib Dems. This is a party conflict. It helps no one. It is extreme and will not allow the country to reach a reasoned conclusion.

We do not vote for 'exactly' the government we want. In 2020 there were 47.6 million Parliamentary electoral registrations in the UK. An individual cannot have their own government; there has to be some compromise. If you think he got something wrong, say so, but remember, he may not want what you want - that's allowed. That does not mean he is not telling the truth - he is just not saying what you want him to say. It does not mean he is lying - he is just not saying what you want him to say and he is allowed not to agree with you and to offer all those other than you and the OP an insight into what he does stand for.

Democracy is for grown-ups. Nobody ever said it was perfect. We live in a democracy, and the alternative is a lot worse.

*Daisy Anne*there are three examples of his lies, or his duplicity, whatever you want to call it, further up this thread. There are many others if you look.
It is so funny. It doesn't seem five minutes since people were asking exactly the same thing about Boris, and implying we made it all up. And look where that got us!

Whitewavemark2 Sun 16-Apr-23 14:01:58

FannyCornforth

I’d still prefer it if Starmer leaves Brexit well alone (for now).

It would give the Tories some fabulous ammunition and more excuses to bang the ‘will of the people’ / ‘leftie lawyer’ drum.

I just want Labour to get over the line.

As we all know, they are experts at grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

Yes.

However, I am not uncritical of Labour Party policies, but I do think that the absolute first, second and third priority is to get rid of a government that is destroying our democracy, corrupt and incompetent.

To do this nothing must be put into the laps of the head bangers or right wing press as a gift to whip the opposition leader.

Telling the “truth” therefore would be doing just that and as someone said Labour is very good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Steady as we go

Whitewavemark2 Sun 16-Apr-23 14:03:24

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

Keir Starmer finds it hard to tell the truth about anything.

So where has he lied?

This is the problem with headlines like this. They are put on by people with an axe to grind.

Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party; Varian is a member (I believe) of the Lib Dems. This is a party conflict. It helps no one. It is extreme and will not allow the country to reach a reasoned conclusion.

We do not vote for 'exactly' the government we want. In 2020 there were 47.6 million Parliamentary electoral registrations in the UK. An individual cannot have their own government; there has to be some compromise. If you think he got something wrong, say so, but remember, he may not want what you want - that's allowed. That does not mean he is not telling the truth - he is just not saying what you want him to say. It does not mean he is lying - he is just not saying what you want him to say and he is allowed not to agree with you and to offer all those other than you and the OP an insight into what he does stand for.

Democracy is for grown-ups. Nobody ever said it was perfect. We live in a democracy, and the alternative is a lot worse.

*Daisy Anne*there are three examples of his lies, or his duplicity, whatever you want to call it, further up this thread. There are many others if you look.
It is so funny. It doesn't seem five minutes since people were asking exactly the same thing about Boris, and implying we made it all up. And look where that got us!

Who are you going to vote for - presumably Sunak?

toscalily Sun 16-Apr-23 14:03:26

varian
Perhaps what I should have said is that regarding Brexit there is likely to be the Tories version of the truth, Labours version of the truth and also Keir Starmers version of the truth. Whether you believe any or none of them it will depend on your own point of view. As for your request quoting figures which support some "alternative truth" where would I find that and why would I bother.

DaisyAnne Sun 16-Apr-23 14:08:36

FannyCornforth

I’d still prefer it if Starmer leaves Brexit well alone (for now).

It would give the Tories some fabulous ammunition and more excuses to bang the ‘will of the people’ / ‘leftie lawyer’ drum.

I just want Labour to get over the line.

As we all know, they are experts at grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory.

I agree Fanny. It is his job to get this appalling government out and that has to be his first priority. He can do nothing to even bring us to a sane footing with the EU unless he has the power to do so.

He has a team studying all the polls and commissioning their own. I think he probably has more information than a member of GN.

DaisyAnne Sun 16-Apr-23 14:13:54

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

Keir Starmer finds it hard to tell the truth about anything.

So where has he lied?

This is the problem with headlines like this. They are put on by people with an axe to grind.

Starmer is the leader of the Labour Party; Varian is a member (I believe) of the Lib Dems. This is a party conflict. It helps no one. It is extreme and will not allow the country to reach a reasoned conclusion.

We do not vote for 'exactly' the government we want. In 2020 there were 47.6 million Parliamentary electoral registrations in the UK. An individual cannot have their own government; there has to be some compromise. If you think he got something wrong, say so, but remember, he may not want what you want - that's allowed. That does not mean he is not telling the truth - he is just not saying what you want him to say. It does not mean he is lying - he is just not saying what you want him to say and he is allowed not to agree with you and to offer all those other than you and the OP an insight into what he does stand for.

Democracy is for grown-ups. Nobody ever said it was perfect. We live in a democracy, and the alternative is a lot worse.

*Daisy Anne*there are three examples of his lies, or his duplicity, whatever you want to call it, further up this thread. There are many others if you look.
It is so funny. It doesn't seem five minutes since people were asking exactly the same thing about Boris, and implying we made it all up. And look where that got us!

To stop us getting at cross-purposes, how about briefly listing these "lies".

Dinahmo Sun 16-Apr-23 14:35:45

I think that at this stage there can be no harm in Starmer and the opposition front bench now stating that they think Brexit was a mistake, as does the majority of the population. He does not need to say if and when the UK can rejoin the EU, merely that a Labour govt would first aim to strengthen trading relationships (probably the most important thing right now) and gradually deal with other topics. If we are to have a united country again he will need to deal gently with the remaining Brexiteers in order to try to get them on board.

Glorianny Sun 16-Apr-23 14:50:17

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

varian Sun 16-Apr-23 14:58:52

toscalily

varian
Perhaps what I should have said is that regarding Brexit there is likely to be the Tories version of the truth, Labours version of the truth and also Keir Starmers version of the truth. Whether you believe any or none of them it will depend on your own point of view. As for your request quoting figures which support some "alternative truth" where would I find that and why would I bother.

If you've no idea where to find figures which support some "alternative truth", toscalily, it may be because no reliable figures can prove something which is patently untrue - such as saying that brexit has not damaged our economy.

That is the difference between truth and lies. If you state something which most people believe to be untrue you should be prepared to be challenged.

You would not get away with stating that the Moon is made of green cheese or the Earth is flat, because these statements are patently untrue - and it is untrue that brexit has been a good thing, as anyone who cares to look at the evidence can see.

DaisyAnne Sun 16-Apr-23 15:00:29

I understand that you are frustrated with not getting what you want varian. That doesn't mean that Starmer is afraid to "tell the truth (your truth) about Brexit*. He is doing what he thinks is right for the his party just as you are doing what you think is right for you.

I imagine that he has come to terms by now with not having your respect.

varian Sun 16-Apr-23 15:04:04

Keir Starmer seems to have lost the respect of a lot of Labour supporters.

Galaxy Sun 16-Apr-23 15:06:06

Have you seen the polls varian?

DaisyAnne Sun 16-Apr-23 15:12:27

varian

toscalily

varian
Perhaps what I should have said is that regarding Brexit there is likely to be the Tories version of the truth, Labours version of the truth and also Keir Starmers version of the truth. Whether you believe any or none of them it will depend on your own point of view. As for your request quoting figures which support some "alternative truth" where would I find that and why would I bother.

If you've no idea where to find figures which support some "alternative truth", toscalily, it may be because no reliable figures can prove something which is patently untrue - such as saying that brexit has not damaged our economy.

That is the difference between truth and lies. If you state something which most people believe to be untrue you should be prepared to be challenged.

You would not get away with stating that the Moon is made of green cheese or the Earth is flat, because these statements are patently untrue - and it is untrue that brexit has been a good thing, as anyone who cares to look at the evidence can see.

When did Starmer say "Brexit has not damaged our economy", varian. I haven't seen that.

varian Sun 16-Apr-23 15:28:40

Galaxy

Have you seen the polls varian?

I have seen the polls which indicate that Labour is very likely to win the next election, and would be even more likely to win without supporting brexit.

I have also seen many posts on Gransnet from Labour supporters who are critical of Starmer.

Unfortunately we do not live in a democracy. FPTP favours a two party system and the only way other voices can be properly heard is for people to vote tactically - which often means voting against the party you hate the most rather than for the party you'd like to win.

I will vote Liberal Democrat for two reasons - it is the party which best represents my views and it is the only party which can beat the Tories in my constituency.

If I lived elsewhere I might vote Labour - in spite of my doubts about Keir Starmer. If I was in Brighton I'd vote Green.

varian Sun 16-Apr-23 15:31:44

"Starmer, who campaigned to stay in the EU and once pushed for a second Brexit referendum, used his first speech of 2023 to promise to “embrace” the Brexiteer message pushed by ex-Prime Minister Boris Johnson"

.https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-keir-starmer-post-brexit-take-back-control-bill-election/

varian Sun 16-Apr-23 15:32:00

www.politico.eu/article/uk-labour-keir-starmer-post-brexit-take-back-control-bill-election/

Glorianny Sun 16-Apr-23 15:41:46

This is so funny- Alexei Sayle and the slam poem "I hate Kier Starmer" www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_l9o0i37c
Worth a watch if only for the description of Liz Truss

GrannyGravy13 Sun 16-Apr-23 15:44:44

Playing devils advocate if horse racing gets banned, what next, point-to-point, cross country, show jumping and then moving onto pony club events (extremely competitive parents).

Carriage driving, horses pulling funeral hearses, donkey rides at the beach…

GrannyGravy13 Sun 16-Apr-23 15:45:04

Oops wrong thread.

DaisyAnne Sun 16-Apr-23 15:45:39

Glorianny

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

These don't sound like lies to me although I accept that is how you see them.

They sound like someone in the party who doesn't agree with the politics of the elected leader. Nothing more, nothing less. You are perfectly at liberty to do that, just as I, and others, are at liberty to think your views pretty extreme and ignore them when contemplating the possibility of Starmer winning the election and whether that's what we want.

It is often the extremists who drive others away from their party. You are doing a very good job in that direction. If I felt people holding your views were going to be able to take charge of the Labour party I would certainly not vote for them. I do not want to see my country in the hands of those on any extreme, ever again. I know I may not be able to stop them with one vote but hopefully others will have had enough of the extremists too.

varian Sun 16-Apr-23 15:46:14

"So here we are – with an economy suffering the cumulative effects of poor growth or absolute decline in real incomes – and along comes Brexit. And what does former remainer Keir Starmer do? He ignores the open goal of the government’s disaster and says “make Brexit work”.

Now, according to a recent poll commissioned by the Constitutional Society, if Labour were to face facts and argue that Brexit was a mistake, its share of the vote would actually increase. As Prof Andrew Blick of King’s College London says: “The party seems to have drawn the conclusion that it cannot come back into power if it criticises Brexit. But this polling suggests it is mistaken.

I agree. This government does not deserve to be re-elected, but it seems to me that Sunak, with his point that Northern Ireland has been offered the best of both worlds, has most certainly got that message.

Indeed, by eschewing Brexit and resorting to a nasty – and stupid – anti-Sunak poster campaign, Starmer has been embarking on a diversion from the big issues which could seriously damage his chances. I fear that he is making a strategic mistake of historic proportions."

William Keegan

www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/16/brexit-caps-40-years-of-conservative-failure-that-starmer-fears-to-oppose

Glorianny Sun 16-Apr-23 18:47:19

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

These don't sound like lies to me although I accept that is how you see them.

They sound like someone in the party who doesn't agree with the politics of the elected leader. Nothing more, nothing less. You are perfectly at liberty to do that, just as I, and others, are at liberty to think your views pretty extreme and ignore them when contemplating the possibility of Starmer winning the election and whether that's what we want.

It is often the extremists who drive others away from their party. You are doing a very good job in that direction. If I felt people holding your views were going to be able to take charge of the Labour party I would certainly not vote for them. I do not want to see my country in the hands of those on any extreme, ever again. I know I may not be able to stop them with one vote but hopefully others will have had enough of the extremists too.

I asked you to look at the pledges ad tell me one he has kept. I accept that you can't do that.
Since when did not keeping a pledge become just a difference in policies? If you promise to do something and don't do it unless you give an adequate reason why something prevented you from keeping that pledge you were in fact lying.
If Starmer can lie in order to become leader of the LP what might he do to become PM?

Katie59 Sun 16-Apr-23 19:37:27

So here we are – with an economy suffering the cumulative effects of poor growth or absolute decline in real incomes – and along comes Brexit. And what does former remainer Keir Starmer do? He ignores the open goal of the government’s disaster and says “make Brexit work”.

Because he can’t change Brexit, he is stuck with it all he can do is make the best of it there is no chance whatever of reversing it. Maybe, just maybe he will join a customs union within the first parliament, any thought of rejoining the EU or even EFTA is pie in the sky. Maybe the next generation will see things differently, we are all going to be gone by then.

Granmarderby10 Sun 16-Apr-23 19:57:00

varian I am in total agreement with the author of the Guardian piece referring to the “ anti Sunak poster” ad campaign.

A grave mistake indeed for labour to go down this road.

Are they unaware of the effect this Yarboo behaviour and mindset is having right now as it plays out in USA

I do wonder sometimes if they (the shadow cabinet) really want to win an election; or just remain in perpetual opposition.

DaisyAnne Sun 16-Apr-23 20:56:09

Glorianny

DaisyAnne

Glorianny

I've one it before but here goes again!(I'm beginning to feel like Cassandra)
1. He promised a radical party which would be united under his leadership. He has basically chucked out anyone on the left .
2. He promised to heal the party of anti-semitism. He has just thrown out left leaning Jews, so right wing Jewish organisations approve of him. (apparently Jews who think differently are "the wrong sort of Jew" and that isn't anti-semitic!!!)
3. He promised to keep borders open and support immigration only he doesn't think that now.
That'll do for a start.
But if your want a real laugh I suggest you go to his website and read his 10 pledges
keirstarmer.com/plans/10-pledges/
If you can find one he has kept to I'd love to know which.
He says he stands for human rights but disciplines an MP who said quite correctly Israel is an apartheid state (Amnesty agrees).
He says he wants to strengthen Trade Unions but won't support strikers.
He says he believes in the NHS but won't rule out privatisation.
It's really difficult to know what Labour policies he does believe in.

These don't sound like lies to me although I accept that is how you see them.

They sound like someone in the party who doesn't agree with the politics of the elected leader. Nothing more, nothing less. You are perfectly at liberty to do that, just as I, and others, are at liberty to think your views pretty extreme and ignore them when contemplating the possibility of Starmer winning the election and whether that's what we want.

It is often the extremists who drive others away from their party. You are doing a very good job in that direction. If I felt people holding your views were going to be able to take charge of the Labour party I would certainly not vote for them. I do not want to see my country in the hands of those on any extreme, ever again. I know I may not be able to stop them with one vote but hopefully others will have had enough of the extremists too.

I asked you to look at the pledges ad tell me one he has kept. I accept that you can't do that.
Since when did not keeping a pledge become just a difference in policies? If you promise to do something and don't do it unless you give an adequate reason why something prevented you from keeping that pledge you were in fact lying.
If Starmer can lie in order to become leader of the LP what might he do to become PM?

You really need to learn that you cannot instruct people in what they answer or you will keep upsetting yourself. Pledges have often changed with the knowledge of what may be possible; what you may be left with. If he has changed them this is hardly a first. I can't tell you how little it matters to me, but then I don't see this as lying; I see it as politics. Some things do matter but the in-fighting in the Labour Party, if this is what this is, is certainly not one of them.

So, as you feel aggrieved by these perceived "lies", who will you vote for in the next election? The right has outstripped Starmer in any form of lying.

Starmer is sensible enough to know he needs the centre votes to win the next election. No party, unless it's a single-issue election such as Johnson's, wins without the centre. So the Leader of the Labour Party is trying to ensure he appeals to the right people in the right places and, at the moment, that obviously isn't you.

As any phycologist would tell you, you cannot change how another human being behaves (although I think Starmer is better than many). The only thing you can do, for your own mental health, is to change your attitude towards that behaviour. Most people learn this much earlier in life than granny-time, and it is much easier to live with other human beings when you have.