Identifying as a different gender

Beliefs that sadly mean ignoring points and alienating young people who also don't believe in stereotypes and have actually learned very well from us older feminists before some went too far.

The stereotypes that you claim young people don’t believe in are the very stereotypes that that people have been fighting to abolish for years, which some trans are trying to re-establish to confuse the difference between sex (immutable) and gender.
How do you justify that
teaching/reminding young people that though they cannot change sex, they can dress, or act as whichever gender they fancy, providing it doesn’t involve cheating, lying or harming others, means alienating them?

It appears that your view is that young people should be able to lie, cheat and harm others in order not to alienate them.

I will never forget my dad at my brothers girlfriends house when we were asked to stand for the queens christnas speech. Am sure you would have enjoyed his to the point response.

Depends what you mean by testing and challenging someones beliefs. By it's very nature, belief is the acceptance of the existence something or the truth of something especially where there is no proof.

Beliefs can be tested and challenged respectfully or not as can their interpretation by the one who has that belief or the one who doesn't share it.

As for a level of cognitive dissonance between the belief itself and how people actually engage with others this is frighteningly apparent when one looks at the rhetoric and behaviour of trans activists.

doodledog

I genuinely believe people have the right to express themselves as they wish with no issue.

Id love to do away with genser norms but for the sake of argument lets say we do away with gender expression/communication, which i would actually couple with sexuality expression/communication. Apart from the fact that dating would suddenly become quite difficult to navigate and we would never know who should be in what toilet, there is absolutely no evidence that this would have any impact on gender dysphoria at all.

Trans people want to change sex, they want different parts to the ones they have. They want different sex hormones and different sexual organs.

Galaxy

People can call themselves whatever they want, they cant compel me to use them. I believe that pronouns reflect sex. My beliefs on 'gender' are different to yours.

Why does it bother you so much what someone wants to call themself? Do you actually know any transgender people or any young person who is currently struggling with their identity? Just be kind and show a bit of understanding...it's not that difficult.

Mollygo

I cant answer that it misrepresents my views

I genuinely believe people have the right to express themselves as they wish with no issue.
So do I. I have never suggested otherwise. In fact I have repeated over and over that I do not have an issue with transpeople, but with the way the trans lobby wants to force everyone into a gender box, and to change the language so that it no longer reflects the fact that there are two sexes.

Id love to do away with genser norms but for the sake of argument let's say we do away with gender expression/communication, which i would actually couple with sexuality expression/communication.
You've lost me there. Gendered communication is massively complex and couldn't be 'done away with'. Over generations, if there were a collective will and a massive push educationally it could be reduced, but to what end, and who would drive something like that anyway? I'm not sure what you mean by gendered communication and sexuality, other than the 'act of courtship' for want of a better phrase , where there are vestiges of the idea of a chaser and a chased.

Apart from the fact that dating would suddenly become quite difficult to navigate and we would never know who should be in what toilet, there is absolutely no evidence that this would have any impact on gender dysphoria at all.
Again, I'm a bit lost. Dating difficult to navigate how? The toilet issue hasn't been resolved - agreed. What would have no impact on gender dysphoria? Sorry - I am definitely missing the point here.

Trans people want to change sex, they want different parts to the ones they have. They want different sex hormones and different sexual organs.
Well yes. I would like to change my body for one that works a bit better than mine is doing at the minute, but I'm not sure what any of that has to do with communication.

foodledog

Lots of people do not understand gender dysphoria, I count myself as one of them but the evidence that it exists and has impacted millions is irrefutable.

Humanity can and does address body parts that do not function correctly. When you realise that almost every human out there has some sort of genetic malfunction (some people need glasses and some don't) and the huge range of those that exist, gender dysphoria and the possibility that has a physical cause (that research is just starting to highlight) is easy to accept.

Even if you came at it from a religious standpoint that Adam and Eve were genetically perfect individuals whose children could safely reproduce through incest for several generations before abnormalities started to turn up...

Well we are now a bit of a mess genetically speaking and even those we appreciate the beauty of their form have some underlying issues lol

Trans people want to change sex, they want different parts to the ones they have. They want different sex hormones and different sexual organs. But what about the apparently large percentage of trans people who don't want different sex parts and sex hormones? They want to keep those the same sex as they once were, but they want to change their official denomination to label them as the opposite sex?

Good point Elegran. Apart from the fact that it's impossible to change sex, as you say a large percentage of trans people want to identify as, and be treated as the opposite sex without making any changes to their bodies.

You are right Elegran my statement was too sweeping

I would assume there are many reasons and I can only speculate or repeat what I have heard

In some areas people cannot afford treatment

In some areas people cannot access treatment

Some are living double lives so they are not alienated by family, friends or communities

Some people may feel that a certain level of social transition is enough to make them comfortable

Some may feel some treatments or surgeries too risky

Some, like the rest of us, may simply accept that they do not have their dream body and cannot achieve it

Some people may not have gender dysphoria at all and have either been misdiagnosed or have misinterpreted the reasons they are struggling.

Smileless2012

I asked that earlier on this thread Dickens but as far as I'm aware no one has answered, maybe because no one knows. If the teacher hadn't been told before hand that no teachers in the school ever referred to a classroom full, or group of students as girls, she's been treated very unfairly.

In some circumstances, using gender neutral pronouns may well feel and sound unnatural especially if there's genuine concern about being castigated for not doing so.

Thanks for the reply.

I'll reserve any 'judgement' then. Facts is facts! And if we don't know what they are yet, then it's difficult to know the rights and wrongs in this case.

Gender neutral pronouns don't trip easily off the tongue, I agree, but I have a trans woman friend and I'm getting used to it. I'd imagine an intelligent teacher would soon get the hang of it.

However I don't accept anyone having a hissy over a genuine mistake with no malign intent.

However I don't accept anyone having a hissy over a genuine mistake with no malign intent neither do I Dickens and because as you say, gender neutral pronouns don't easily trip off the tongue, it's bound to happen from time to time.

Genetic malfunctions such as deafness, eyesight problems, or dwarfism require no lies. Transgender requires no lies except when it claims change of sex.
Glasses can make a person with eye defects able to see better. Hearing assistance can give better hearing to someone who is deaf. Growth hormones can sometimes help children with dwarfism grow more than they otherwise would.
There is no treatment that changes sex.
Living as the ‘sex’ you feel you are is
quite possible. Adopting the gender specific attributes that you see as ideal of that sex -clothing, make up, etc. is possible.
Why not? Clothing is frequently unisex.
Taking it further and claiming that it means you have changed sex is a lie, no matter how you dress it up.
If you use your chosen gender to cheat and lie, use female safe spaces, sport etc, (and most TIM don’t) then that says more about the type of person you are and impacts on the perception of what it means to be trans.
If you believe that the cheating and lying are OK, or you refuse to condemn those TIM that do that, then that says a lot about the type of person you are.
If you don’t believe that using transgender status to entitle TIM to cheat and lie or force others to accept that they have changed sex, then there is no problem.

Except Mollygo how people with gender dysphoria feel is not a lie and what doctors have established as the best treatment for gender dysphoria is gender affirmation

The same way that my aunt had reconstructive surgery after dpible mastectomy

It's a lie that she was any less of a person or a woman without breasts but the treatment was still affirmation

Mollygo was referring to lying and cheating in terms of using female spaces, competing against females in sports etc. and the claim that someone can change sex.

Parts of a body can be removed and added and hormones taken but neither of those change the sex of that body.

Trans women are not women. However they can live as women if they want to, providing they accept that they are not women. Others have said as much too. It doesn’t offend anyone if trans women wear women’s clothes, make up, in fact live as women. What they can’t do is invade women’s safe spaces, compete against women in sports, or lie about their sex. Most trans women accept that in order to live life as a woman they need to follow these simple guidelines. It’s the few who aggressively claim that they actually are women who are causing problems. For the other trans women as well as women born female.

The nhs are actually now saying that the best treatment for young people is not gender affirmation.
It appears in adults that the suicide rate does not improve with surgery. I really hope that the evidence is stronger than the evidence they used either regard to children.

Hi blondie, I was getting drunk with transwomen 30 years ago if that's any help to you.
Many transwomen I know now are very concerned about gender affirmation for young people. Because you know transpeople hold different views on this subject.
It concerns me what young people call themselves as the NHS are advising against this as an approach. So perhaps it is a bit more difficult than you thought.

Mollygo

Genetic malfunctions such as deafness, eyesight problems, or dwarfism require no lies. Transgender requires no lies except when it claims change of sex.
Glasses can make a person with eye defects able to see better. Hearing assistance can give better hearing to someone who is deaf. Growth hormones can sometimes help children with dwarfism grow more than they otherwise would.
There is no treatment that changes sex.
Living as the ‘sex’ you feel you are is
quite possible. Adopting the gender specific attributes that you see as ideal of that sex -clothing, make up, etc. is possible.
Why not? Clothing is frequently unisex.
Taking it further and claiming that it means you have changed sex is a lie, no matter how you dress it up.
If you use your chosen gender to cheat and lie, use female safe spaces, sport etc, (and most TIM don’t) then that says more about the type of person you are and impacts on the perception of what it means to be trans.
If you believe that the cheating and lying are OK, or you refuse to condemn those TIM that do that, then that says a lot about the type of person you are.
If you don’t believe that using transgender status to entitle TIM to cheat and lie or force others to accept that they have changed sex, then there is no problem.

Fine I will address the whole thing

People abusing trans rights to harm women do not reflect badly on trans people in general that sort of thinking only encourages prejudice and prejudice leads to problems like sexism and racism and homophobia which we well know, and is not feminist

Expecting individuals to condemn the behavior of people lying, cheating or abusing others because you percieve them to belong to the same group is also completely wrong and has the exact same outcome, you are asking people to affiliate themselves with wrong doing by virtue of belonging to the same group which leads to prejudice etc etc etc

Most people do condemn lying cheating and abuse, but they do not need to do so where you can see it and they do not need to do so by identifying themselves as part of any group.

But I accept that many do think this way and people absolutely cannot see their own participation in and unthinking encouragement towards issues feminsim has been fighting for decades.

Let's not forget that that there have always been POC and LGBTQ+ fighting for equality with us

But I'm not saying anything new. I'm just speaking as a feminist

Dickens

Smileless2012

I asked that earlier on this thread Dickens but as far as I'm aware no one has answered, maybe because no one knows. If the teacher hadn't been told before hand that no teachers in the school ever referred to a classroom full, or group of students as girls, she's been treated very unfairly.

In some circumstances, using gender neutral pronouns may well feel and sound unnatural especially if there's genuine concern about being castigated for not doing so.

Thanks for the reply.

I'll reserve any 'judgement' then. Facts is facts! And if we don't know what they are yet, then it's difficult to know the rights and wrongs in this case.

Gender neutral pronouns don't trip easily off the tongue, I agree, but I have a trans woman friend and I'm getting used to it. I'd imagine an intelligent teacher would soon get the hang of it.

However I don't accept anyone having a hissy over a genuine mistake with no malign intent.

If you read the article linked to on page 1 of this thread the school has "diversity and inclusion prefects" and an assembly was given by them and older girls on gender and pronouns. It sounds as if the school is quite "woke"and the teacher wasn't. If you don't agree with the philosophy and ethos of a school it's difficult to understand why you would want to work there.

But I'm not saying anything new. I'm just speaking as a feminist
Me too, but you’re wrong about so many things

Mollygo

But I'm not saying anything new. I'm just speaking as a feminist
Me too, but you’re wrong about so many things

I'm wrong about lots of things I expect

But my understanding of what discrimination is, what leads to it and how ignorance unknowingly perpetuates it are absolutely education based and completely on point

Thanks though

VioletSky Re. your post at 15:23:46 - Or, as First Minister Humza Yousaf recently said about Adam Graham/Isla Bryson, they may just be “at it”.